Puerto Rico

[Walker]

Puerto Rico

THIS THREAD IS A TERRIBLE AWFUL BAD IDEA.

One ground rule, before I start this. Anyone who posts here MUST be civil, okay? Don't even IMPLY any ethnicity-based slander, okay? Good.

So, awhile back Congress enacted a law that said basically, IF Puerto Rico votes to change their status they can vote for independence, statehood, or a free association as a sovereign nation-- kinda like the Northern Marianas Islands, I guess.

The bill is here.

Going from the summary version, the bill says this:

(1) the official language requirements of the federal government shall apply to Puerto Rico; and (2) it is the best interest of the United States for the teaching of English to be promoted in Puerto Rico as the language of opportunity and empowerment in order to enable students in public schools to achieve English language proficiency.

Puerto Rico is an island of roughy 4 million people. If it were a state, it would be the 27th largest, between Kentucky and Oregon. (For reference, from Wkipedia, Maryland would be and still is 19, New York is and would be third, Wyoming would be 51st (unrelated: It'd be 52nd if Puerto Rico and DC both became states), and Rhode Island would be 44th.)

Puerto Rico has been part of the United States since the Spanish-American War, in the waning days of the 19th century, and its people have been citizens since 1917. They have fought in every war we've had since (including Iraq and Afghanistan), been drafted in every war we've had a draft, they can vote in presidential primaries, and they have a nonvoting representative to Congress.

They also speak Spanish. They value their heritage and their language, and unlike the Southwestern states, they haven't had an influx of Anglophone immigrants and coordinated reduction of Spanish usage.

Is it just me, or is this a dealbreaker? Both from the GAAARGH, ENGLISH ONLY American side and the WHAT THE HELL, WE DON'T WANT TO LOSE OUR LANGUAGE Puerto Rican side?

Because, seriously, I want them to be a state. My goal in life is to be able to fly

That flag.

Which, personally, I think looks cooler than the alternative.

 

[James Butts]

Re: Puerto Rico

I personally think if they want to be a part of the states, they need to learn our language, as well as every single other us resident that doesn't already know it, if you want it so bad, work for it, or, gtfo!

 

[HeroOfCrapsalot]

Re: Puerto Rico

Puerto Rico has it's own little nationalistic thing going and I don't think all the Puerto Ricans would agree with becoming a state ie: riots, protests, boycotts.

 

[Walker]

Re: Puerto Rico

Look, we're not arguing that. I know that viewpoint, I disagree with it, and I've argued it to an inconclusive death fifty billion times. PLEASE. I DO NOT WANT TO BEAT THAT DEAD HORSE ANYMORE.

I KNOW ALL ABOUT THE PROENGLISH, OFFICIAL ENGLISH, ENGLISH ONLY, WHATEVER-THE-****-YOU-WANT-TO-CALL-IT ARGUMENTS. PLEASE DO NOT START THAT ONE HERE.

What I want to talk about is whether those arguments are going to kill any possibility of Puerto Rico becoming the 51st state in the union.

And those awesome flags, of course.

 

[LobotomizedLOVE]

Re: Puerto Rico

Yea, they've voted against becoming a state many times. They're more culturally in tune than we are as Americans and they don't want to lose that culture just so they can be Americans. Honestly, they already get almost all the perks of being a part of our country without actually being a part of it.

 

[Walker]

Re: Puerto Rico

I've heard that argument before, and here's the thing: what benefits? Can't vote, can get killed, get some money, pay taxes too.

Plus, I feel the need to point out that they've voted against independence more than they've voted against statehood. If they'd just get rid of that "do nothing" option, this would've been resolved years ago.

Culturally in tune with what? I mean, we Americans get that a lot, that we're uncultured. Which frequently seems to mean that our culture is the one that everyone else hijacks, and since we don't hijack anyone else's (or maybe because we hijack other people's too much?) we don't have a culture? I dunno.

But I can definitely understand the Puerto Ricans not wanting to be a full part of a country where they might be outnumbered by people who think like Mr. Butts up there.

 

[LobotomizedLOVE]

Re: Puerto Rico

Walker, darling, you seem to be the one flaming your own thread. You demand that we all be civil, meanwhile you're the one who's calling people out on their opinions and shoving yours up everyone's collective butt. Really now.
I personally don't think PR will ever be a state and I can sleep perfectly well at night without having them as a state. I couldn't really care less to be perfectly honest.

 

[James Butts]

Re: Puerto Rico

I can definitely understand the Puerto Ricans not wanting to be a full part of a country where they might be outnumbered by people who think like Mr. Butts up there.

So you think it's unfair to learn the absolute most important and basic part of our culture in exchange for mostly equal rights? I would take that deal, in fact, I would consider that a bargain!!

 

[Walker]

Re: Puerto Rico

I've heard that argument before, and here's the thing: what benefits? Can't vote, can get killed, get some money, pay taxes too.

Plus, I feel the need to point out that they've voted against independence more than they've voted against statehood. If they'd just get rid of that "do nothing" option, this would've been resolved years ago.

Culturally in tune with what? I mean, we Americans get that a lot, that we're uncultured. Which frequently seems to mean that our culture is the one that everyone else hijacks, and since we don't hijack anyone else's (or maybe because we hijack other people's too much?) we don't have a culture? I dunno.

But I can definitely understand the Puerto Ricans not wanting to be a full part of a country where they might be outnumbered by people who think like Mr. Butts up there.

Wait. Wait. Wait. You're calling THAT post flaming? I admit I'm an asshole, but that? That wasn't assholey.

Really. I'm curious. I wasn't putting down your opinion. Expand on what you said. What benefits do they get, and what disadvantages do they avoid?

The second bit is also true, and not meant to ne aggressive or insulting at all. In their previous votes, the status quo has gotten the most votes, but statehood has always beaten independence. That's all I was saying.

And... not sure how that third bit could be flaming. But I'm sorry if it was. Sincerely.

And on the last bit... calling him Mr. Butts was a little insulting. I admit it, that's what I was thinking. But what I actually said was agreeing with you, essentially. You said that "they don't want to lose that culture just so they can be Americans." Which is roughly the same as what I said: people like James would want to destroy their Hispanophone identity.

Though, in retrospect, I would argue "not Americans." They're citizens, and they've fought and died for this country in damn near every war, if not every war, since 1901 or so. "American" is the least we can give them. Well, unless they're pro-independence. Then it might just **** them off.

EDIT: James, I reiterate, I'm not going through that argument again. I'm sick of it, and that WOULD lead to me flaming. EDIT2: All I said is that people with your opinions would be a big con for Puerto Ricans deciding between statehood and independence. EDIT3: And that's all I'm saying. I will not argue any portion of your opion. I swear it on a stack of bibles.

 

[HeroOfCrapsalot]

Re: Puerto Rico

Yea, they've voted against becoming a state many times. They're more culturally in tune than we are as Americans and they don't want to lose that culture just so they can be Americans. Honestly, they already get almost all the perks of being a part of our country without actually being a part of it.

Exactly. The U.S. is an extremely racially diverse place compared to anywhere else including Puerto Rico.

 

[Walker]

Re: Puerto Rico

John, from Wikipedia:

The U.S. Government classifies Puerto Rico as an independent taxation authority by Federal Law 48 U.S.C. § 734. Puerto Rico residents are required to pay U.S. federal taxes, import/export taxes,[83] federal commodity taxes,[84] social security taxes etc. The only exemption is federal income taxes since residents pay federal payroll taxes (Social Security[85] and Medicare),[86] as well as Commonwealth of Puerto Rico income taxes. All federal employees,[87] plus those who do business with the federal government,[88] in addition to Puerto Rico-based corporations that intend to send funds to the U.S.,[89] and some others[90] also pay federal income taxes.

And as I recall, one reason that Puerto Rico doesn't pay federal income tax is because most people would fall below the point where they'd have to pay any. Which is why they have Puerto Rico income taxes. Which, admittedly, is completely without any evidence, because I haven't looked for any.

Though... now I am getting off-topic, considering that the original thing I wanted to discuss was "how big a barrier to statehood is the language deal."

EDIT: And yeah, Hero, you're right. Puerto Rico is 80.5% white, and the US is only 75%. We're way more diverse. Though, of course, we look even better if you decide that Hispanics aren't white. Then we're 65.4% white and THEY'RE still 80.5% er... white people who happen to speak Spanish.

 

[James Butts]

Re: Puerto Rico

EDIT: James, I reiterate, I'm not going through that argument again. I'm sick of it, and that WOULD lead to me flaming. EDIT2: All I said is that people with your opinions would be a big con for Puerto Ricans deciding between statehood and independence. EDIT3: And that's all I'm saying. I will not argue any portion of your opion. I swear it on a stack of bibles.

Whatever... I don't want to destroy their culture, I just want to be able to ask them a question without having a translator or some such, they can speak whatever the hell language they want between themselves. And I also believe that it would be much, much easier on everyone if all cultures blended into one to an agreeable point. it may help the world understand each other better.

For the post you ninja'd me with, I think that it would be an extremely large barrier, I mean, would you honestly hire someone to work for you if you couldn't understand them?

Also, I like your flag idea.

 

[Walker]

Re: Puerto Rico

Not arguing with you.

Not my flag idea, either. I got both images from here, and I have no idea who actually designed the second. The first was the same guy who did the 50-star version. Well, either him or the Army's heraldry people. Or whoever.

 

[HeroOfCrapsalot]

Re: Puerto Rico

EDIT: And yeah, Hero, you're right. Puerto Rico is 80.5% white, and the US is only 75%. We're way more diverse. Though, of course, we look even better if you decide that Hispanics aren't white. Then we're 65.4% white and THEY'RE still 80.5% er... white people who happen to speak Spanish.

I may have used the word "extremely" a little freely

EDIT: I flickered a bit. Sorry.

 

[Walker]

Re: Puerto Rico

Let's assume that Puerto Rico's non-white population is mostly black with a small Native American component, shall we? It's also smaller overall because we have a hundred times their population. But Wikipedia also claims they had some immigrants from the Middle East and Asia, so who the **** knows. But they just have "non-white." Oh, well.

We have roughly .22% native-something (I'm combining Pacific Islander/Hawaiian and American Indian/Alaska native), 4.4% Asian, 12.4% black, and 4.9% something else, plus 2.3% mixed. So, our 4.4% Asian population is all we have on them.

TANGENT WARNING: Doesn't say anything about the Middle East, so presumably they count as white? Can't help but wonder where you stop being white and start being Asian. Pakistan? India?

There's also the fact that in the past, the contiguous US operated under the one-drop rule. If you had a single black ancestor, you were black. Whereas Puerto Rico was more liberal in what white was. Apparently if you had at least one white ancestor every generation for four generations you were white. Which means... what, exactly, I don't know. They traded away diversity for consolidating them all in one?

 

[Firis]

Re: Puerto Rico

I didn't read past the first post, first off, as a Kentuckian, I enjoyed reading my state name :3
Secondly I think it would be fine for them to join, even if they don't truly give up Spanish.

 

[Tsuyu]

Re: Puerto Rico

How would becoming an official state rob them of their culture? Are you gonna send the Conquistadors to rape and pillage?

 

[HobbeBrain]

Re: Puerto Rico

Speaking as someone who is nearly clueless in this subject, I think they should because the first flag pwn0rz the current one.

 

[Walker]

Re: Puerto Rico

How would becoming an official state rob them of their culture? Are you gonna send the Conquistadors to rape and pillage?

Nah, there's lots of people who are really down on Spanish. They'll scream really loud about how all these immigrants are coming here and not learning English and they'll take over and we should make English our official language and that will make it all better.

Meanwhile, 4 million Puerto Ricans speak Spanish as their first language, it's co-official with English, and for the most part Puerto Ricans in general aren't Anglophone. Which is one of the reasons that Puerto Rico is generally opposed to statehood... or mildly more prone to commonwealth-in-free-association status, anyway.

And Hobbe, I know, right? I think the thing looks awesome, personally.

 

[HobbeBrain]

Re: Puerto Rico

Is it the flag that is officially going to replace it, or is it just you personal take?