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Necromancer

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The problem for your confusion is that Hitler "claimed" to be a Christian in some of his speeches and some Nazi's have "connections" to the so called church. Well, I hate to point out the obvious but Hitler was politician (and a very good one at that) and they all tend to speak out of both sides of their mouth to convince their mindless hoard of followers. Many people in general tend to do that to justify their actions.
Whether or not the nazi party believed in what they were saying about christianity is fairly irrelevant. The fact that they used it to justify their actions is a misuse of religion by itself. In fact, I think I might even consider it to be a worse misuse of religion if they didn't believe in what they were saying because that would mean that they were being intentionally deceptive. Also, this can go for many groups and situations, not just for the nazis and the Holocaust.

As for the whole "No religion = no excuses" argument is just wrong. Any group (religious, political, etc) can be dangerous purely because of the threat of group mentality. All you need is one wacko with some horrible ideas but who is charismatic enough to make them sound good and then s*** hits the fan.
This is why I don't like politicians.

I'm not saying that people would have no excuse for causing terrible world events if it weren't for religion. I'm just saying that some people might have not found an excuse for what they did if religion wasn't around, and certain events could have been avoided.

I enjoy arguments and debates . . . I hope im not upseting any of you.

Don't worry about it. I'm the same way.
 

Shadowtree

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Whether or not the nazi party believed in what they were saying about christianity is fairly irrelevant. The fact that they used it to justify their actions is a misuse of religion by itself. In fact, I think I might even consider it to be a worse misuse of religion if they didn't believe in what they were saying because that would mean that they were being intentionally deceptive. Also, this can go for many groups and situations, not just for the nazis and the Holocaust.
Oh.:/
Well we agree there. lol :) And thats the main point that im trying to make.

I'm not saying that people would have no excuse for causing terrible world events if it weren't for religion. I'm just saying that some people might have not found an excuse for what they did if religion wasn't around, and certain events could have been avoided.
However we disagree on this point, I say people will find any excuse to do whatever they want to do. Whether it be religion (group mentality) or asserting their right as an individual to the point where they interfer with others' rights.
But I can see your point and I respect that.

Don't worry about it. I'm the same way.
Lol I suppose we have much in common then in that sense. But we will clash quite often for ****s and giggles.
 

Gikoku

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I hope im not upseting any of you. I am not a troll... or at least I think I'm not a troll.
Well. I try not to be a troll.

Of course not, the more debates the better (that's part of what forums are for), and if anyone can't handle a friendly debate then they can gtfo.

You don't smell like a troll, nor act like one. You're fine.
 

Shadowtree

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Of course not, the more debates the better (that's part of what forums are for), and if anyone can't handle a friendly debate then they can gtfo.

You don't smell like a troll, nor act like one. You're fine.

You can smell me!? :blink:
 

Necromancer

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However we disagree on this point, I say people will find any excuse to do whatever they want to do. Whether it be religion (group mentality) or asserting their right as an individual to the point where they interfer with others' rights.

But what about conflicts that were directly caused by religion? You can't honestly tell me that the Crusades would have happened without religion.
 

Gikoku

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You can smell me!? :blink:

I can smell everybody. Necro smells like Fable, Tsuyu smells like sex, Angel smells like a daycare, Dark Drakan smells like an unimaginable amount of booze, Cheezmcnasty smells like the obvious, and Queen smells like a hot & sweaty disco floor. For some reason I can't smell myself...
 

TRA Rotid

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Giki chan smells like roses and cherry trees.
 

Arseface

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Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't, but it would be infinitely more difficult to find excuses for all the things religion has caused if religion never existed. The world definitely wouldn't be the same without religion, that's for sure.

The Soviets didn't have heaps of trouble justifying their messed up **** without religion. Nor did any number of similar "communist" states.

Galileo? Copernicus?

Their ideas were suppressed by an organisation who feared that their power would be undermined by these new ideas. I think it was more about power than it was about religion. Not that religion wasn't a big part of it. It's a blurry line.

But what about conflicts that were directly caused by religion? You can't honestly tell me that the Crusades would have happened without religion.

Again, I think that was more about power than religion.
 

Skotekal

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Of course not, the more debates the better (that's part of what forums are for), and if anyone can't handle a friendly debate then they can gtfo.

You don't smell like a troll, nor act like one. You're fine.

Well what if I have a thing against bathing? You gonna discriminate against my hygiene? Bah!
 

Tsuyu

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Their ideas were suppressed by an organisation who feared that their power would be undermined by these new ideas. I think it was more about power than it was about religion. Not that religion wasn't a big part of it. It's a blurry line.

An organisation which never would've existed were it not for Christianity.
 

Necromancer

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The Soviets didn't have heaps of trouble justifying their messed up s*** without religion. Nor did any number of similar "communist" states.

I'm not saying that people would have no excuse for causing terrible world events if it weren't for religion. I'm just saying that some people might have not found an excuse for what they did if religion wasn't around, and certain events could have been avoided.

Again, I think that was more about power than religion.

That could be partially true, but hey, at least we know that that time period wouldn't have gotten any worse if religion had been gotten rid of beforehand.
 

Shadowtree

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But what about conflicts that were directly caused by religion? You can't honestly tell me that the Crusades would have happened without religion.
Not entirely, no. But you see all wars are caused by a collective number of reasons not just one big one. The big reasons given in history classes should always be taken in as "the straw that broke the camel's back".

The crusades are a tricky one to answer because everything was so intricately linked. Racism and power were two other reasons to go to war; but they were both directly linked to the church... For example. The Pope declared war because christian travelers were beening mugged on a piligrimage to the holy land. They were mugged not just because they were nesscessarily Christians, but because they were also European. Mind you im sure Middle Eastern Christians were also mugged for their religion but there was diffentantly serious racist crap going on between Europeans and Middle Easterners.... as well as Asians and Africans and Other Europeans. Well you get the idea.
Without religion, the only difference to this point would be that those travelers wouldn't have been on pilragmage and therefore would never have been robbed.
Mind you there were other reasons and points too.
Land is one- Nations were spreading, Europeans feared the Arabs taking land from them... Which they should have been considering everyone had a history of trying to take land from each other at the time. In fact, they still do now. Nothings really changed when you think about.

Another reason (my personal favorite and the only other one I will mention) was money. Like I said earlier without religion the european travelers wouldn't be on pilragmage. But some Europeans would still actually go to the Middle East and get mugged- Merchants. The Middle East has ALWAYS been fought over because it was the crossroads of the world. If you didn't control the seas, you wanted to control the road to Asia which was the Middle East. European powers certainly took the opportunity to get rich into account when this war came around. I'd have to say that this may have even been the root of the reason.

However we can't really argue "what ifs" because its impossible to know what would have happened for sure.
I think the Crusades could have still started without religion... Just not as the Crusades we know.

And keep in mind even if there wasn't a Crusades in any form because of a lack of religion, you'd be re-writing the entire world history. There would still be other wars just as brutal to replace it. There is no use in justifing one war as better over another imaginary one from that perspective.
 

Arseface

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An organisation which never would've existed were it not for Christianity.

But I think the actual bad things they did were more about power than anything.
 

Hermit

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"Banned" Interested.
"Mormon" Stabbing hand begins twitching.
"Cartoon" Uncontrolable laughing begins.
 
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