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Democracy!

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Re: Democracy!

I don't think he meant it like that... We need to have some sort of leader which would be elected, and mods elected etc, But on big decisions alot of the people don't agree with what all mods have to think.... Just think theres over 6000 people on this forum just because 4 people (staff) agree with the decision, sometimes less of the staff... Makes you think that it's the best decision for the community... let the people that make this forum up decide, arent you deciding the well-fare of these people?
 
Re: Democracy!

To be honest, I doubt even 60% of the Members have even posted.
 
Re: Democracy!

Kamolakk;173794 said:
I don't think he meant it like that... We need to have some sort of leader which would be elected, and mods elected etc, But on big decisions alot of the people don't agree with what all mods have to think.... Just think theres over 6000 people on this forum just because 4 people (staff) agree with the decision, sometimes less of the staff... Makes you think that it's the best decision for the community... let the people that make this forum up decide, arent you deciding the well-fare of these people?
Who are "a lot of the people"? Or are they just those who feel slighted because at some point they were told to behave or were temporarily banned or got an infraction? The staff are capable of deciding what is best for the majority - we can't keep everyone happy and there are bound to be times when our decisions don't rest easy with some people but ultimately we are FOR the forum, not against it. It is highly unlikely we would make a decision that would harm the boards - certainly, there may be some short-term fallout due to someone getting upset over a ban or an infraction but that's part of forum life.

To ask the individual opinions of 6000+ people and then try to make a decision based on each of the responses is ridiculous, really. And impossible. Many of those members do not post here, were one-post wonders or spammers. Perhaps the suggestion would then be that we ask those who do post regularly? But then we'd end up with just page after page of debate and even if there was a vote on something, those who did not want such and such to happen are bound to kick off and then we have to mess around with all that. Democracy still has to have leaders and trust must be placed in them to do what is best for the community as a whole, not necessarily the angry few who are not getting what they want.

Members are often invited to comment on changes or updates made to the boards but very very few take the time out to say anything - the same apathy will apply to any voting system put in place.

I'm also a little confused as to what these "big decisions" entail? Perhaps you could enlighten me :)
 
Re: Democracy!

Kamolakk;173794 said:
I don't think he meant it like that... We need to have some sort of leader which would be elected, and mods elected etc, But on big decisions alot of the people don't agree with what all mods have to think.... Just think theres over 6000 people on this forum just because 4 people (staff) agree with the decision, sometimes less of the staff... Makes you think that it's the best decision for the community... let the people that make this forum up decide, arent you deciding the well-fare of these people?

Yeah i have no idea what big decisions your referring to, when we change something on the forums we do ask the community if they like the changes and if not we revert them back or change things accordingly. The decisions regarding members and action taken against them is no concern of other members as we are essentially the forum security and when someone is flaming or spamming its a pretty clear cut decision that needs no consulting. I have no idea as to what 'decisions' the forum itself needs consultation from the members with.
 
Re: Democracy!

Totally against the idea.

FableFreak;173731 said:
Sure, I'd like to vote on some things, but this is Steve's site. He pays for it, so it is up to him what happens here.
Just to clarify: It's up to me and Andy what happens here. Not highlighting this to have a dig at you, FF, far from it. I love you! Just making sure DD gets the credit he deserves.

And I'd say that the site pays for itself. ;)
 
Re: Democracy!

Angel how did you become a admin did steve make you one just because your his wife? Also andy when he was dateing hex made her a mod all because they were going out. Sounds like spoils system to me anyone else? Also i notice when hex was a mod everyone thought so highly of her yet she was mean to some people but when she wasent a mod no one cared and people started to say what were on their minds. Mods and admins shouldent have the right to ban someone if they insulted someone and that said member insulted them back. Democracy will make things fair for everyone not just the admins and the mods. Also i think its lame mods and admins can ban people and not give them a fair chance atleast with this idea people can vote and the person who might get ban can explain his side of the story.


Edit - Steve your agisent it cause you dont want your undisputed power taken away.
 
Re: Democracy!

blue crow;173825 said:
Angel how did you become a admin did steve make you one just because your his wife? Also andy when he was dateing hex made her a mod all because they were going out. Sounds like spoils system to me anyone else? Also i notice when hex was a mod everyone thought so highly of her yet she was mean to some people but when she wasent a mod no one cared and people started to say what were on their minds. Mods and admins shouldent have the right to ban someone if they insulted someone and that said member insulted them back. Democracy will make things fair for everyone not just the admins and the mods.
I became a mod because Steve offered (before we were married) - he asked Andy first and it's always been due to our relationship, I've never hidden that ;)

However, Hex became a mod because at the time Steve had stuff going on and we needed the extra pair of hands. There were three or four candidates put forward and Hex came out on top not because of her relationship with Andy but because she was posting links, helping people out and other stuff. Things went downhill because of complaints, personal reasons for her and other issues going on both on and off the boards which meant it was not possible to continue her position as it was. You all know this, so I will not reiterate further.

As for banning, you need to understand that unruly behaviour, if not kept in check by both the staff and those instigating the problems, leads to a total breakdown across the boards. People don't know if they can post, if they can't - will they get their head bitten off by so and so if they say this or that? It's not the sort of environment we want to encourage here and the only times so-called "censorship" come into play is when the good of the WHOLE community is being attacked i.e. someone trolling or flaming to try and upset or cause arguments.

It says in the rules that staff have the right to ban/moderate/edit/delete without notification although you will notice that very often people are warned first. If they continue to behave like a retard then they are dealt with accordingly. If people don't like the rules, then signing up here is a bit pointless...but the only people who rage against the machine are those who have told someone to **** off or whatever and been hauled for it.

There have been only two major bans concerning insults etc recently and those people were offered every opportunity to discuss their problems in private, away from prying eyes, but they refused. This was their prerogative and the consequences came about from a continued refusal to sort things out in a mature and amicable manner as well as some very unpleasant behaviour off the public boards. Banning is a last and not a first resort with members and if it comes across as sudden or without indication then that is usually due to behaviour privately which is clearly going to lead to an outburst on the boards which will cause a lot of damage. You might think that is horribly unfair but I'd rather ban one unpleasant member than risk them upsetting a whole string of other people by turning a blind eye.

We also act upon complaints, PM's, reported posts etc when making decisions about infractions/bannings.
 
Re: Democracy!

Say if someone pmed a mod an insult and mod banned him is that fair in your eyes?
 
Re: Democracy!

That would depend. Rare that someone would out of the blue PM a mod in order to simply insult them. What would be the point in that if not to try and see what would happen?

If there was more to it than a random insult for no reason then that would obviously have been considered when determining the necessity of a ban.
 
Re: Democracy!

Say it was an insult for getting back at someone. anyone from i think this is goona get at your goona say mods shouldent be insulted even in pms. So its okay for regular members to insult each other in pms. But if a member insults a mod after being insulted its a major no no.
 
Re: Democracy!

No one should be insulted either on or off the boards. Disagreements happen but most of the time people are mature enough to apologise (either publicly or privately) and the matter is laid to rest.

Showing blatant disrespect for a staff member doesn't go down well largely because, like it or not, they are in charge and to a degree command some respect within this role. If it became a free-for-all in insult throwing then it shows a lack of authority and makes the place look a bit wild and out of control. This goes for both members and staff alike - staff members are spoken to regarding their behaviour in a manner which is appropriate - either via PM or on the boards, same with a regular member. If a thread was closed by the offending mod/admin, then to continue it on the boards is pointless and so they are dealt with via PM. If the discussion is still open, they are more often than not dealt with publicly. You have all seen this in the past. Privately is preferred so that the overall reputation and impression given of the site and community as a whole is not one of chaos and tyranny because that doesn't help anyone.

One has to ask the question, however, why the need to "get back" rather than offer the chance of a sensible discussion was a necessary action? Or perhaps a better course would be for the member in receipt of such a PM to forward it to another member of staff to look at? I understand we all lose our tempers, but a tit-for-tat mentality gets us nowhere.

But no, insults are not ok for anyone - regardless of position - and if someone reports it or it is publicly seen then it is dealt with even though it may not be the yell-fest everyone loves to read and is secretly glad it's nothing to do with them. Drama is never preferred over private discussion here, although sometimes we can't win because when we close a thread to avoid further flaming we get yelled at for censorship.

In this vein, if there is something or someone specifically which you wish to discuss, I would really recommend we continue this discussion via PM, if you are agreeable.
 
Re: Democracy!

So mods can insult members and its okay gotcha thanks for showing me this system of modding.
 
Re: Democracy!

At what point did I say or insinuate that? Pretty sure the first sentence covers it...
 
Re: Democracy!

Second paragraph is a big thing about it being bad for insulting mods. One has to wonder what can be said or cant be said all because a mod might get mad and ban them.
 
Re: Democracy!

Then you haven't understood my point there. I was referring to your assumption that insulting a mod is a big no-no, in your words, and was explaining the reasons for why there is a heavier penalty when showing blatant disrespect for those in charge. It was not specific to any event and was not specific to someone being banned after a PM containing an insult - just a general overview. It is bad to insult ANYONE - but to attempt to undermine existing authority figures has more of an effect on the community than perhaps people realise.

Someone was banned, for example, on our DMC board for telling me to shut the **** up. I didn't ban him but our mod did and it turned out there were a number of posts he had seen which I hadn't where this guy often told people to do **** off and was very rude about both staff and members in general. There had been repeated private warnings but he didn't care and was banned for a week. He has since returned and all is fine...

Had it been a one-time thing he would have been warned and that's it. People didn't see the private warnings, obviously, so some couldn't understand the reason for the ban. Had they done some looking around it should have been blatantly obvious.

No one is forced to join these sites but they are obliged to abide by the rules. There are the VBulletin rules and the Projectego rules and both apply. If no one reads them before ticking the "I agree" box, then that's hardly the fault of the staff...
 
Re: Democracy!

Give me awhile to reply back to that i written a reply to that somewhere.
 
Re: Democracy!

That's fine - take your time. Sounds far more organised than me anyway ^_^
 
Re: Democracy!

I do kind of feel like it's a dictatorship more than anything here... I'm not saying anyone is corrupt here, im just saying that I feel like if I mess up once mods will be all over me... Every one gets mad everyonce in a while... Yes they could get off the forums and just forget about it, but when your right there and feel as if you have been insulted you can hardly not fight back.

Then if you do, you are the one getting in trouble.

I hope you can understand what I said, I didn't explain it that well im tired of typing today.
 
Re: Democracy!

I don't expect for one minute that everyone has the superhuman ability to simply forget they've been insulted. I've had my fair share of run-ins here myself and if Steve hadn't said "leave it and wait till later" I' have lost my rag completely and probably my membership here too.

If there has been some action taken by staff in the past concerning your specific posts or something then I can assure you that it is firmly staying there - in the past. I don't personally recall anything, because my memory sucks, but if I or any of the staff have given the impression you're on your last chance here I'd like to rectify that, if I may.

PM's are used to sort out the various grievances people have but if they are being used as the sole platform for banning people than that is something which needs addressing as it is unfair. But if there are other factors (current ones, not ancient history!) in play such as continually arguing in threads or starting angry threads aimed at other people then these have to be considered, as I've already said.

Defending yourself is perfectly acceptable - of course it is - but when it descends into both sides just being horrible to each other then that isn't right. Regardless of position. There was a case where this happened in a thread and I posted my annoyance at the behaviour of both the staff and members involved. I then privately addressed it with the staff as that was more appropriate than posting in a closed thread.

Perhaps what some do no realise here is that the more "all mods are evil" threads and posts we get, the less Fable stuff we rank for and then people won't come here and get to be involved in what is a very fruitful community full of dedicated people. Don't know about you but I don't want this place to be known as a trolling paradise...
 
Re: Democracy!

blue crow;173825 said:
Edit - Steve your agisent it cause you dont want your undisputed power taken away.
I have undisputed power? That's news to me! ;)

And I'm against the idea because it's not a very good one.
 
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