good or evil

[Hexadecimal]

Re: good or evil

Ok this may be a bit esoteric but, what is evil and what is good?

A rough definition could be how your actions affect the quality of life of others. Pure good would only take actions that would lead to higher quality of life for others and pure evil would only take actions that lead to a lower quality of life for others.

That would really depend on what you mean by quality of life though... for instance you could say it is evil to intentionally cause someone pain... that certainly lowers quality of life... but what if that is done to teach someone a valuable lesson?
Or what if someone's quality of life is decreased, but it is deserved? For instance firing someone from their job, leaving them with no way to pay the bills...that would certainly lower their quality of life... but what if it is done because the person is legitimately a poor worker? Is that still evil?
I look at good and evil not in relation to how they impact others, but in terms of whether they were neccessary... if someone is harmed without cause or justification, that is unneccessary... anything else is allowable...
I don't feel one must give up any of their own quality of life to be a good person... since for me the definition of a good person is simply not an evil person, and that's easy

 

[funky_fable]

Re: good or evil

wow that is some messed up **** right there totally true but messed ip **** for real +rep both hexadecimal and albion knight

 

[Sephiroxas]

Re: good or evil

...Molyneux promised that you could plant an acorn and see it growing into an oak tree, but unfortunately, that feature was cut from Fable. Because of that, Molyneux received death threats from anonymous Fable fans.....[[:'(]]......One new concept is wealth; in Fable 2 you can also become rich or poor independently from what path of integrity you choose. You can be a good but poor hero, or an evil rich *******, but things really get interesting when we talk about other, more rare combinations that are related to cruelty and kindness...........Your children will also be fully responsive to you. How responsive? If you are poor, they will be skinny and ask you to give them food. How cruel you can be? You can eat in front of them without giving a single piece of what you’re eating and they will beg for a bite......

:devil:~TeamXbox

 

[Albion Knight]

Re: good or evil

That would really depend on what you mean by quality of life though... for instance you could say it is evil to intentionally cause someone pain... that certainly lowers quality of life... but what if that is done to teach someone a valuable lesson?

That's a good point I think you have to look at the effect over time. This also brings the idea of intention into play. You can certainly cause someone great harm even though your intention was good. "The road to hell..."

Or what if someone's quality of life is decreased, but it is deserved? For instance firing someone from their job, leaving them with no way to pay the bills...that would certainly lower their quality of life... but what if it is done because the person is legitimately a poor worker? Is that still evil?

For that one person it could be seen as an evil act. Then, as you mentioned before, what if this caused the person to straighten up their act. Also in this case I would look at the greater good for all concerned.

I look at good and evil not in relation to how they impact others, but in terms of whether they were neccessary... if someone is harmed without cause or justification, that is unneccessary... anything else is allowable...

There is a lot of evil done in the name of a just cause. What is necessary for one is completely unnecessary for others.

I don't feel one must give up any of their own quality of life to be a good person... since for me the definition of a good person is simply not an evil person, and that's easy

That’s another good point. There is such thing as win-win and such a balance should be sought out.

Let’s try expanding the definition to say that a good act has an overall increase in quality for all those affected by the act and evil has an overall decrease in quality for all those affected. I would further add that the intent of the person in this regard would characterize the person and the results would characterize the act.

 

[Hexadecimal]

Re: good or evil

For that one person it could be seen as an evil act. Then, as you mentioned before, what if this caused the person to straighten up their act. Also in this case I would look at the greater good for all concerned.

Let’s try expanding the definition to say that a good act has an overall increase in quality for all those affected by the act and evil has an overall decrease in quality for all those affected. I would further add that the intent of the person in this regard would characterize the person and the results would characterize the act.

I did not mean that the person would be fired in the hopes they would learn to straighten up their act... I meant that they are a poor worker and no good at their job and never will be... it is useless and unneccessary to keep them on when someone better can replace them... I asked why that would be evil... I have no interest in whether they ever learn from this or not, but you can work from the assumption that they never will if it helps...
or I could ask if a homeless person asks for some change and you have some, but had planned to use it to buy yourself a snack on the way home, is it evil to not give it to them? If it is, are you then required to give and give to every person who might ask you for anything simply because you are capable of giving it? forever indebted to those who have less than you? it's similar to simply handing someone a job when I would prefer to give it to somebody else, just because they need it ...

Insofar as good and evil being measured by its effect on others, this is the utilitarian concept, whereby right and wrong are decided like a math problem by counting the happy faces...
the fact that people would purposefully do evil things would prove that there were people who in fact enjoy performing evil acts...
that would mean that no matter what I did, were I to surround myself with enough people who shared my views, we could consider ourselves saints no matter how evil our actions so long as we were in the majority...
I prefer not to look at actions or people as good or evil because nothing is so clear cut... as I said I look at whether my actions were neccessary, and if so acceptable... whether others feel they were neccessary is irrelevant...one's honour should not be swayed by the value systems used by others...

 

[Albion Knight]

Re: good or evil

I did not mean that the person would be fired in the hopes they would learn to straighten up their act... I meant that they are a poor worker and no good at their job and never will be... it is useless and unneccessary to keep them on when someone better can replace them... I asked why that would be evil... I have no interest in whether they ever learn from this or not, but you can work from the assumption that they never will if it helps...
or I could ask if a homeless person asks for some change and you have some, but had planned to use it to buy yourself a snack on the way home, is it evil to not give it to them? If it is, are you then required to give and give to every person who might ask you for anything simply because you are capable of giving it? forever indebted to those who have less than you? it's similar to simply handing someone a job when I would prefer to give it to somebody else, just because they need it ...

Insofar as good and evil being measured by its effect on others, this is the utilitarian concept, whereby right and wrong are decided like a math problem by counting the happy faces...
the fact that people would purposefully do evil things would prove that there were people who in fact enjoy performing evil acts...
that would mean that no matter what I did, were I to surround myself with enough people who shared my views, we could consider ourselves saints no matter how evil our actions so long as we were in the majority...
I prefer not to look at actions or people as good or evil because nothing is so clear cut... as I said I look at whether my actions were neccessary, and if so acceptable... whether others feel they were neccessary is irrelevant...one's honour should not be swayed by the value systems used by others...

So if it's necessary then its good if unnecessary it's bad or are you saying there is not good or bad just what is needed and what is not. In either case they both relate to purpose/meaning/logos So good and evil are tied to the meaning of life. Things that are counter to the meaning of life are bad things that are supportive to the meaning of life are good.

 

[Hexadecimal]

Re: good or evil

So if it's necessary then its good if unnecessary it's bad or are you saying there is not good or bad just what is needed and what is not. In either case they both relate to purpose/meaning/logos So good and evil are tied to the meaning of life. Things that are counter to the meaning of life are bad things that are supportive to the meaning of life are good.

NO
that's not what I meant at all...
as I have said repeatedly, I do not see good or evil... I did not mean unneccessary = evil... I meant that unneccessary actions are unneccessary, and to me unacceptable...that is not the same thing... that which is unneccessary is useless and takes resources from that which is important and neccessary...

I do not believe life has a meaning or purpose... so I do not believe any action is capable of supporting that which does not exist...
my world obeys only one law, and that's MINE... my every action supports that law...
if that is the "meaning" you were referring to then I suppose that would make me a perfect saint... I imagine that is not what you were going for however...

 

[Sephiroxas]

Re: good or evil

What is good and evil really? I mean if you're going to get all theoretical to confuse all the noobs than that's just fine. LOL

Good is Evil and Evil is good. If I'm evil, good people are bad. If I'm good, evil people are bad. It's the same difference

 

[Albion Knight]

Re: good or evil

So good or evil are a means to fulfill what is necessary.
Without meaning/purpose nothing is necessary. Therefore all actions are unacceptable.
Purpose doesn't have to be anything especially grand it’s just the answer to the question "Why are you doing what you are doing?"

Good is evil to Evil because it opposes its ends and vice versa.

This is starting to take the flavor of a religious argument so I'll make it my last post on the topic

 

[Darg]

Re: good or evil

Morality depends on who you are. What is wrong to one, may be justly right to another. You should be able to play Fable 2 how you see fit. Period.