Iraq War Ending: Leaving the Sand behind to see More Sand

[cheezMcNASTY]

WASHINGTON — Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom were brought to an unceremonious close today with a quiet announcement by the Department of Defense that troops would be home within weeks.
“This is the best face we can put on the most unfortunate adventure in modern American history,” Defense spokesman Kevin Sites said at a special joint session of Congress. “Today, we can finally enjoy peace — not the peace of the brave, perhaps, but at least peace.”
As U.S. and coalition troops withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan, the United Nations will move in to perform peacekeeping duties and aid in rebuilding. The U.N. will be responsible for keeping the two countries stable; coordinating the rebuilding of hospitals, schools, highways, and other infrastructure; and overseeing upcoming elections.

http://nytimes-se.com/2009/07/04/troops-to-return-immediately/

Thoughts? Criticisms? I know the US isn't pulled out yet but judging from how politicians cringe at announcing the uncertain, I'd wager that this will be followed through. I'm glad Iraq will be over and I hope that Afghanistan ends soon.

 

[Tsuyu]

How is it even remotely the "most unfortunate adventure in modern American history"? I'm glad it is coming to an end, as I am sure many are, but calling it that^ is so wrong.

 

[cheezMcNASTY]

How is it even remotely the "most unfortunate adventure in modern American history"? I'm glad it is coming to an end, as I am sure many are, but calling it that^ is so wrong.

What would you consider the most unfortunate adventure in modern American history? I know there's a long list of things to choose from but I would think that the war with Iraq would be pretty high on that list from most perspectives, admittedly not my own.

I'd say it's trying to govern a modern society with a relic of a system run by incompetent corporate goblins, but that's just me.

 

[Necromancer]

How is it even remotely the "most unfortunate adventure in modern American history"? I'm glad it is coming to an end, as I am sure many are, but calling it that^ is so wrong.

True that. When I read that sentence, I said to myself, "if that isn't the understatement of the year, I don't have any idea what is." But at least we finally have a sliver of good news. It's progress, and I can only hope that we keep moving troops out of the middle east.

 

[Tsuyu]

Modern technology has made warfare, for better or worse, more effective and cleaner. So it doesn't even begin to compare to the world wars, or the Korea and Vietnam wars. They were far more "unfortunate adventures" and since they all happened within 100 years I'd count them as events in modern history.

 

[Sean]

I can't wait to hear people say "Obama is the Greatest President! He brought the troops out of Iraq!" Regardless of the fact that the plan to deplete troops gradually until a final pull out in 2011 was drawn up and put into effect in 2008. That's okay. He's taking credit for the $400 Billion jobs act and killing Osama, why not this too. He might as well have planted both flags on Iwo Jima and been the first person on the moon, don't forget he fired the first shot in Lexington.

 

[Tsuyu]

And how much of a credit hog was Bush? Hitler? Any political leader throughout history?

It's the nature of the beast.

 

[Sean]

And how much of a credit hog was Bush? Hitler? Any political leader throughout history?

It's the nature of the beast.

The difference being Hitler kept his word and actually did what he said he did, I assume you're talking about W Bush, and thus comes the reply that Bush may have been a credit hog but at least his ego and misguided sense of pride was boosting through the roof at mach 5, I don't think Bush's family spent 3/4's of his career on vacation or going around the World apologizing and bowing to every world leader and politically powered figure on the same level as him, but acting like a big tough guy to everyone smaller. Bush was far from perfect, but at least he didn't act like the savior of America.

Back to the topic:
I actually do see these two wars being America's most unfortunate modern day move. The Taliban grew tremendously in numbers and power and weaponry when they received billions of dollars in funding by the US Government in the 1980's to fight the soviets in Afghanistan. It was only a matter of time they used that power against their own country to gain even more power. During the beginning of Enduring Freedom things actually went pretty smooth, it was mainly accurate and precision based bombings and gun ship runs, special forces operations (unconventional warfare) and the Northern Alliance fighting the Taliban, it was working. Somewhere along the line they figured they could fight an unconventional force with conventional tactics - thus the massive amounts of troops started pouring in.

American involvement in Iraq could have been over in a couple months. Instead they decided to disband the Iraqi military (huge part of the insurgency), leaving anarchy in the streets and no order. Seven insurgent groups sprouted in the next several years. We have done more harm than good in Iraq, and honestly I don't know if we have even made a slight bit of change in Afghanistan. I guess only time will tell.

 

[Tsuyu]

I guess it depends on how you define the rather ambiguous term "unfortunate adventure". Me, personally, I'd define it as a costly military campaign in terms of overall devastation and loss of human life, as well as brutality. Vietnam was big on all those things; it was a savage war which cost a lot of human lives, devastated the flora and fauna of Vietnam, and caused long lasting effects (Agent Orange etc.) which is still killing/harming people today.

 

[Sean]

I guess it depends on how you define the rather ambiguous term "unfortunate adventure". Me, personally, I'd define it as a costly military campaign in terms of overall devastation and loss of human life, as well as brutality. Vietnam was big on all those things; it was a savage war which cost a lot of human lives, devastated the flora and fauna of Vietnam, and caused long lasting effects (Agent Orange etc.) which is still killing/harming people today.

Then yes I were to definitely agree with you if we were to look at it by destruction and human loss - Vietnam and maybe even Korea would be on the top of the list.

 

[Tsuyu]

Not to mention that entering a war during the peak of the Hippie movement didn't exactly win over the support of the people back home. And since the US didn't exactly win the war or anything, it was pretty much a disaster in all aspects. Not counting the fact that it allowed First Blood to be made, one of my all time favourite Stallone movies.

Unfortunate adventure indeed.

 

[Necromancer]

Plus, Vietnam had the draft.

Not to mention that entering a war during the peak of the Hippie movement didn't exactly win over the support of the people back home.

I feel like a lot of the hippie movement was caused by the Vietnam war.

 

[cheezMcNASTY]

I guess we're throwing out "modern": the operative word of the statement.

In terms of raw casualty you guys are probably right. In terms of stuff actually turning around to bite us in the ass I'd push it back a bit further to the Spanish-America war. We made enemies of so many countries that are nearby who are still out to get us over it. Columbia, Venezuela and Cuba are probably the best examples. Anyway, it's the first time in history where we felt like we had to show off our political muscles to everyone to be taken seriously.

**** you Teddy Roosevelt.

I feel like a lot of the hippie movement was caused by the Vietnam war.

Pretty sure it did... and today we have the Occupy movements trying to do something similar. Fingers crossed that some of the egg-heads in Washington decide to listen for once.

 

[Tsuyu]

I wouldn't say "caused by", but it got a good kick in the pants to get going. It quickly bloomed from that point, eventually reaching full flower power within a few years.

 

[Necromancer]

Pretty sure it did... and today we have the Occupy movements trying to do something similar. Fingers crossed that some of the egg-heads in Washington decide to listen for once.

I suppose we can dream.

 

[Tsuyu]

They better get cracking on making some kickass music then. The hippies wouldn't have been anything without the music.

 

[Firis]

Invading Iraq was a stupid move, glad we are finally pulling out, unfortunately we already blew our load and now it's like dumping Iraq because we can't handle the responsibility.

 

[Arseface]

I feel like it's a good decision to pull out. We let them handle their own **** (hopefully the Arab Spring will have some kind of positive influence), and if it all falls apart... I guess we can always go back?

The difference being Hitler kept his word and actually did what he said he did, I assume you're talking about W Bush, and thus comes the reply that Bush may have been a credit hog but at least his ego and misguided sense of pride was boosting through the roof at mach 5, I don't think Bush's family spent 3/4's of his career on vacation or going around the World apologizing and bowing to every world leader and politically powered figure on the same level as him, but acting like a big tough guy to everyone smaller. Bush was far from perfect, but at least he didn't act like the savior of America.

Sorry Sean, but I really don't think W is going be winning a who's-a-better-president competition against anyone, let alone Obama. Maybe that's just my inner Liberal speaking, but I don't think a lot of people would disagree with me.

And to be fair, once Hitler was in power, he didn't have to play the politics game to stay. Bush and Obama did and do, and that being the case, compromise is going to happen, promises will get broken.

And that's the nature of politics anyway. Whoever is in power is always doing a terrible job, and the years before they were elected are seen as the good old days. That's how it is especially true in Australia now.

Back to the topic:
I actually do see these two wars being America's most unfortunate modern day move. The Taliban grew tremendously in numbers and power and weaponry when they received billions of dollars in funding by the US Government in the 1980's to fight the soviets in Afghanistan. It was only a matter of time they used that power against their own country to gain even more power. During the beginning of Enduring Freedom things actually went pretty smooth, it was mainly accurate and precision based bombings and gun ship runs, special forces operations (unconventional warfare) and the Northern Alliance fighting the Taliban, it was working. Somewhere along the line they figured they could fight an unconventional force with conventional tactics - thus the massive amounts of troops started pouring in.

American involvement in Iraq could have been over in a couple months. Instead they decided to disband the Iraqi military (huge part of the insurgency), leaving anarchy in the streets and no order. Seven insurgent groups sprouted in the next several years. We have done more harm than good in Iraq, and honestly I don't know if we have even made a slight bit of change in Afghanistan. I guess only time will tell.

What would you consider the most unfortunate adventure in modern American history? I know there's a long list of things to choose from but I would think that the war with Iraq would be pretty high on that list from most perspectives, admittedly not my own.

I'd say it's trying to govern a modern society with a relic of a system run by incompetent corporate goblins, but that's just me.

Vietnam was a way bigger **** up than Iraq and Afhanistan. They were all huge **** ups, but the difference is that we toppled the Taliban/Saddam, whereas we were beaten by the Viet Cong. We actually got something for our effort this time.

I guess we're throwing out "modern": the operative word of the statement.

In terms of raw casualty you guys are probably right. In terms of stuff actually turning around to bite us in the ass I'd push it back a bit further to the Spanish-America war. We made enemies of so many countries that are nearby who are still out to get us over it. Columbia, Venezuela and Cuba are probably the best examples. Anyway, it's the first time in history where we felt like we had to show off our political muscles to everyone to be taken seriously.

f*** you Teddy Roosevelt.

Pretty sure it did... and today we have the Occupy movements trying to do something similar. Fingers crossed that some of the egg-heads in Washington decide to listen for once.

It was definitely fuelled by it.

Pretty sure it did... and today we have the Occupy movements trying to do something similar. Fingers crossed that some of the egg-heads in Washington decide to listen for once.

Speaking of: are the police just indiscriminately assaulting the protesters in America like they are here?

 

[cheezMcNASTY]

Speaking of: are the police just indiscriminately assaulting the protesters in America like they are here?

There are isolated cases of police brutality but for the most part no. The main tactic they've been using is arresting them for being in a public park after curfew...
They also tried to claim that the park was in a dirty littered state and they had to evacuate so the city could clean it up (of course, the park was spotless). Nobody evacuated and the press called the right office who admitted not a single complaint had been filed despite what the governor said. Basically everyone thinks he's a dumbass if they didn't already.
That place is ****ing spotless, man. I read they even recycle the water they wash with and water the parks flora with it.

 

[D3m190d]

There are isolated cases of police brutality but for the most part no. The main tactic they've been using is arresting them for being in a public park after curfew...
They also tried to claim that the park was in a dirty littered state and they had to evacuate so the city could clean it up (of course, the park was spotless). Nobody evacuated and the press called the right office who admitted not a single complaint had been filed despite what the governor said. Basically everyone thinks he's a dumbass if they didn't already.
That place is f****** spotless, man. I read they even recycle the water they wash with and water the parks flora with it.

I've seen where you live:

Iguess you've got lower standards.