Race

[Necromancer]

Re: Race

well, i don't really see this argument going anywhere else. it seems to be a digression that has just led to a difference in opinion. lore and storyline is the most important thing in a game for Tsuyu, and game play is the most important aspect for Anon. now, perhaps we could go back to a previous conversation...?:lol:

I'm saying that looking back at the previous games it isn't likely to happen.

while it may be somewhat unlikely that the next hero is a race other than white, the possibility of a dark skinned hero is still large enough for the option to choose your race to be plausible.

And my assumption is that everyone in the Heroes' Guild was related to Will one way or another. The assumption is that the guy bred like a little bunny rabbit.

That would be my assumption as well if it weren't for one fatal flaw: Jack of blades needed someone from your hero's family to unlock the sword of aeons specifically because your hero's family descended from the first archon. if all heros were descendants of him, jack would have been able to find any old hero and use him/her to unlock the sword instead of having to find your family.

 

[Tsuyu]

Re: Race

That's.... a very interesting point, nercomancer. Way to blow a big hole in that theory, hah! Not to mention that Jack's host at the time you fight him seem to be able to most certainly use Will Powers as well.

 

[Xeon]

Re: Race

I always thought it was cool to play as different races in video games. Even though I'm Caucasian, I enjoyed playing as Carl in GTA San Andreas and as a spanish guy in Saint's Row.

Yeah but did you notice how ****ed up the storyline became when they put a black guy behind the wheel? No offense to brothers in here but the San Andreas story seemed like it had been cooked up by a 12 year old on meth.

Come on! Shooting UFO's and stealing top secret government weapons for a hippie?

 

[Anon]

Re: Race

Yeah but did you notice how ****ed up the storyline became when they put a black guy behind the wheel? No offense to brothers in here but the San Andreas story seemed like it had been cooked up by a 12 year old on meth.

Come on! Shooting UFO's and stealing top secret government weapons for a hippie?

All that does is highlight the institutional racism at Rockstar. It in no way reflects on how games should play with a Black lead character.

 

[Xeon]

Re: Race

And that is exactly why I don't want a black lead character in GTA. but then again, I consider GTA4 to be some kind of apology by introducing a eastern european gangster who constantly makes fun of Americans.

 

[Anon]

Re: Race

And that is exactly why I don't want a black lead character in GTA. but then again, I consider GTA4 to be some kind of apology by introducing a eastern european gangster who constantly makes fun of Americans.

Why you don't want a black lead character in GTA? Did you mean Fable III?

I can't see how it'd change the gameplay that much, you can't assume that because Rockstar are scummy racists that Lionhead are. A Black protagonist wouldn't detract from the story of Fable III.

Anyway, in my ideal world it'd simply be a choice at the start rather than necessarily saying your hero has to be any race. I for instance can't see how it'd be that taxing to make say 6 head models and textures for an African, East Asian and Caucasian male and female hero variant. In reality it'd be a tiny amount of work that would give the player alot more choice.

There's no reason the storyline of Fable should change based upon the race of your hero. Not once did I here any villager nor adversary make reference to my characters genealogy in Fable II, nor did they make reference to Garth's. Fable II would be just as compelling a game if the protagonist was Morrocan, Somalian, Jamaican, Korean, Pakistani, Russian or English.

Even if the game didn't offer a choice and your character had to be Black, to say it'd automatically change the story of the game is not only ignorant, but quite frankly offensive.

 

[Ryu_the_fox]

Re: Race

Lol, we are going waaay off topic. But the character's you use in GTA4 should be of european descent.(No offense to anyone, and i to am not of european descent) Im kinda sick of the black gangster thing. Those gangs are so small. Organized crime from other countries are much cooler.

And anyway back on topic.
Again, i dont think you need to part f a family to use will powers. I think you just need to learn how to use them. I mean it cant be that everyone in the hero's guild were in the same family. The guild taught people to use the will powers. (oh wait i am going off topic again....) And the hero could have just married a black person and have a black child. OR we could just have potions that change our color. Its completely possible to have a black hero. I mean Fable is supposed to let you be whoever you want to be. A Holy Male Knight that is straight and pure, An Evil Male mage that is Gay, A Pure Female Gunslinger that is Bi, or a pure but evil male hero who uses will powers and guns and swords who had a sex change and is now attracted to men. All those possibilities are there except race. I cant say, that in fable i'm an Asian Samurai who is pure and good, or a Black Gunslinger who is neutral. That is why race is important in fable.

 

[Xeon]

Re: Race

Skin changing potions fine by me, as long as the hero still looks like the ones from the previous games.

 

[Anon]

Re: Race

Skin changing potions fine by me, as long as the hero still looks like the ones from the previous games.

So if it changed some of the anatomical features to be more typical of the race in question you'd suddenly have an objection? I also slightly object to the fact it'd have to be a potion, what would the problem be with my character having always been the race he is? Why should I have to start caucasian and change it when giving me the option to start as my desired race is just as valid?

 

[Walker]

Re: Race

That is a point, necromancer. I'm just going from the bit in Tales of Albion that says "The Archon's children grew petty and cruel. They called themselves Heroes and used their powers of Will to terrorize the people." It also said "Nostro unknowingly possessed the power that all the Archon's descendants shared."

And... no, it doesn't say that only Archon/Will/Scythe's descendants had Will abilities. And that doesn't really fit with the fact that Jack of Blades needed specifically Theresa, Crimson Robe, or the Hero. Maybe it could be rationalized that they were specifically descended from another of Archon's children? Like Nostro, or somebody we don't know about? My guess would be someone between Will and Nostro.

And yes, it would be a rationalization. And a fairly complex one. It's probably simplest to say that lots of people had Will abilities, but Will himself was the first to popularize them.

And Anon? About the story: that's the thing. Some games don't rely on the story too much. Pac-Man for instance, doesn't require a story at all, or Tetris. You can even say shooters don't need much of a story. But RPGs like Fable aren't really about running around and slaughtering all the bad guys-- that's why there's all the characters running their mouths and big, elaborate plots. They're part of the game.

But about race? Just **** it, I don't care anymore. There's enough black kids and heroes and shopkeepers and whatever running around Albion that we might as well assume that the Archons were really big on immigration and so Albion is a thoroughly multitonal society. It's simpler.

 

[Anon]

Re: Race

By Story I'm not talking about the storyline of the game itself I'm talking about the lore and background that doesn't affect the main plot of the game. Whether or not according to the lore you can legitimately have a black hero is irrelevant to the plot.

 

[FiendFyre]

Re: Race

Even if the game didn't offer a choice and your character had to be Black, to say it'd automatically change the story of the game is not only ignorant, but quite frankly offensive.

Offensive seems a bit strong.
Having a black hero wouldn't necessarily change the plot, but perhaps the back story of the hero, his heritage.
And I do think that in a game like Fable, those are important.

I personally don't see any problem with the option being open to change your race from the beginning, or potions or whatever, so long as the option to be caucasian was still there, which I'm not saying your disputing.

 

[Anon]

Re: Race

Offensive seems a bit strong.
Having a black hero wouldn't necessarily change the plot, but perhaps the back story of the hero, his heritage.
And I do think that in a game like Fable, those are important.

I personally don't see any problem with the option being open to change your race from the beginning, or potions or whatever, so long as the option to be caucasian was still there, which I'm not saying your disputing.

By the story I mean the plot rather than the backstory that doesn't directly affect the game. For instance if Fable II had a Black protagonist I don't think there'd be a single aspect that needed to change. By saying that the character being Black would have to effect his back story at all you are essentially saying that it's impossible for a Black person to live the same sort of a life as a white person, which simply isn't true.

Why, out of interest, would the removal of the option be caucasian offend you? What if the protagnoist simply was Black, no options, that's just the way it was, would that ruin the game for you somehow? I personally think that giving the player the option is the way forward, but if that wasn't happening I think a change from the stereotypical caucasian hero would be a positive thing.

 

[Necromancer]

Re: Race

you know, i actually think that taking away the option to be a white hero might even add to the storyline and the lore as well. if your character had to be black, the back story could be that the people of the heroic bloodline could have married with some people from Samarkand, which would then open up a gateway to be able to go to Samarkand in fable 3. you could go there to visit relatives or something like that.

but as i've said before, i'm all for some kind of race change or choice in fable 3. i'd probably play as a black guy at some point even though i'm white lol

 

[FiendFyre]

Re: Race

Why, out of interest, would the removal of the option be caucasian offend you? What if the protagnoist simply was Black, no options, that's just the way it was, would that ruin the game for you somehow? I personally think that giving the player the option is the way forward, but if that wasn't happening I think a change from the stereotypical caucasian hero would be a positive thing.

My, you do ask a lot of questions!
I'd like to have a caucasian person much in the same way as you want a black hero.
Did I say having a black Hero would ruin the game? No. All I said was I want to option to be white. And you want the option to be black. One in the same, don't you think?
I wouldn't stop playing Fable at all were the Hero not white, I'd just rather play caucasian. No big deal. It would appear you would rather play as black so I don't see the issue.
And did I once say I would be offended were the option to be white removed? Yet again, no. I would like the option to remain there, that is all.
I'm not one who easily takes offense. I wouldn't have been offended in the slightest had the option to play as a female hero not been added. Frankly, I prefer playing as a male. I do not see the point in taking offense.
After, it's still a darn good game. And surely that's all the really matters.

 

[Anon]

Re: Race

My, you do ask a lot of questions!

I'd like to have a caucasian person much in the same way as you want a black hero.
Did I say having a black Hero would ruin the game? No. All I said was I want to option to be white. And you want the option to be black. One in the same, don't you think?
I wouldn't stop playing Fable at all were the Hero not white, I'd just rather play caucasian. No big deal. It would appear you would rather play as black so I don't see the issue.
And did I once say I would be offended were the option to be white removed? Yet again, no. I would like the option to remain there, that is all.
I'm not one who easily takes offense. I wouldn't have been offended in the slightest had the option to play as a female hero not been added. Frankly, I prefer playing as a male. I do not see the point in taking offense.
After, it's still a darn good game. And surely that's all the really matters.

I ask questions to ascertain answers. It is in my experience preferential to making assumptions which actually offer you nothing.
I'm not questioning your motives as to why you want a caucasian character, that is obvious, however when discussing the possibility of a non-caucasian character you added the conditional statement "so long as" to imply that you wouldn't be ok with it if the option for a caucasian character wasn't still available.
Your passive agressive attitude is to be honest beneath me and your thinly veiled jibes are quite frankly laughable. You may claim not to have intended them, but they were implied, I did not infer them.
My wish for a Black character is a wish for a fantasy game to break the all too clichéd and stereotypical "hero" of most games. Would I identify with a Black character more? The fact I've written papers on this very subject tells me yes, I would. However I'd be just as happy with an east Asian or Arabic hero.

 

[FiendFyre]

Re: Race

I ask questions to ascertain answers. It is in my experience preferential to making assumptions which actually offer you nothing.
I'm not questioning your motives as to why you want a caucasian character, that is obvious, however when discussing the possibility of a non-caucasian character you added the conditional statement "so long as" to imply that you wouldn't be ok with it if the option for a caucasian character wasn't still available.
Your passive agressive attitude is to be honest beneath me and your thinly veiled jibes are quite frankly laughable. You may claim not to have intended them, but they were implied, I did not infer them.
My wish for a Black character is a wish for a fantasy game to break the all too clichéd and stereotypical "hero" of most games. Would I identify with a Black character more? The fact I've written papers on this very subject tells me yes, I would. However I'd be just as happy with an east Asian or Arabic hero.

Like I said, I would be happier if the option to play as a caucasian character were kept available, I do not see the harm and that.
You've gone completely off the trail, and are at the point of making personal remarks about me. Which suggests, you have nothing left to base your 'argument' on, when all I did was point out you seem to have an issue with me being happy with a caucasian character when you want a black character. I'm failing to see the issue here.

I don't see the point in making petty remarks, when my points were just as valid as your own. If your unwilling to accept anyone elses opinion, so be it.
But I think it's time this little discussion ended before it becomes heated and verges on ridiculous.

 

[Anon]

Re: Race

Like I said, I would be happier if the option to play as a caucasian character were kept available, I do not see the harm and that.
You've gone completely off the trail, and are at the point of making personal remarks about me. Which suggests, you have nothing left to base your 'argument' on, when all I did was point out you seem to have an issue with me being happy with a caucasian character when you want a black character. I'm failing to see the issue here.

I don't see the point in making petty remarks, when my points were just as valid as your own. If your unwilling to accept anyone elses opinion, so be it.
But I think it's time this little discussion ended before it becomes heated and verges on ridiculous.

Once again against a less intelligent man perhaps your reasoning here would pass as logical, alas, I am not said man.

I made no remark implying harm in the option of a caucasian character being available, infact through out this topic I've been lauding choice. I've merely said if choice were not available I'd prefer something to the bog standard caucasian hero.

You began the ad hominems here, not me. You made a comment about me being easily offended and asking alot of questions as if that was somehow a negative thing. You can claim that there was nothing left in my arguement yet my point was made, you've said nothing that contradicts it merely stated your opinion again. My latest point, incase you missed it was addressing why you felt the need to apply the condition that a white character was still available to the option of a non-caucasian one being available.

I'm willing to accept opinions, however as soon as I questioned yours you made comments about my character, you initiated this, not me.

You can claim you want to end it before it becomes "heated", yet intentionally post what is clearly an inflamatory post to induce a reply from me. The problem you've encountered if your position has become untenable. You reply to my clear rebuttle of your theory on our "arguement" and you become the person continuing it, if you don't then since all of my points are valid and well reasoned you seem to have lost, yet you put yourself in this corner.

Assuming you actually wish to debate what our original subject matter was then I pose you this question again: Why did you add the condition that a white hero was still available for the notion of heroes of other races to become acceptable in your mind? Perhaps it was simply ineligant phrasing which would make this entire rhetoric redundant, in which case we have no issue, however if it was more I was just wondering what motivated it?

 

[Necromancer]

Re: Race

Anon, that's pretty ballsy of you to say that FiendFyre started the fight. First of all, she didn't make any mention of you being easily offended, she only said she doesn't see the point in taking offense. that doesn't seem directed toward you at all, she just said it to go along with saying that she wouldn't take offense if the hero was not white, and that she doesn't take offense easily. Also, her remark about you asking a lot of questions didn't seem hostile in the slightest. in fact, the comment seemed almost friendly to me. her exclamation wasn't an angry one, it was more of a, "woa, that's a lot of stuff to answer" kind of thing, and i could see it being said with somewhat of a smile.

now, here is the post you were referencing. I don't think any other portion of this post contained any intended hostility, or anything else of the sort.

My, you do ask a lot of questions!
I'd like to have a caucasian person much in the same way as you want a black hero.
Did I say having a black Hero would ruin the game? No. All I said was I want to option to be white. And you want the option to be black. One in the same, don't you think?
I wouldn't stop playing Fable at all were the Hero not white, I'd just rather play caucasian. No big deal. It would appear you would rather play as black so I don't see the issue.
And did I once say I would be offended were the option to be white removed? Yet again, no. I would like the option to remain there, that is all.
I'm not one who easily takes offense. I wouldn't have been offended in the slightest had the option to play as a female hero not been added. Frankly, I prefer playing as a male. I do not see the point in taking offense.
After, it's still a darn good game. And surely that's all the really matters.

now, your post directly afterwards was where i think this fight really began:

I ask questions to ascertain answers. It is in my experience preferential to making assumptions which actually offer you nothing.
I'm not questioning your motives as to why you want a caucasian character, that is obvious, however when discussing the possibility of a non-caucasian character you added the conditional statement "so long as" to imply that you wouldn't be ok with it if the option for a caucasian character wasn't still available.
Your passive agressive attitude is to be honest beneath me and your thinly veiled jibes are quite frankly laughable. You may claim not to have intended them, but they were implied, I did not infer them.
My wish for a Black character is a wish for a fantasy game to break the all too clichéd and stereotypical "hero" of most games. Would I identify with a Black character more? The fact I've written papers on this very subject tells me yes, I would. However I'd be just as happy with an east Asian or Arabic hero.

in the bold portion of this post, you greatly imply that you are better than her in your mind, and you make fun of her, when in fact nothing before this was said in any angry manner or with any hostile intentions. i admit there is not a large portion of hostility or anger in this post, but i was merely looking for the first hostile statement, the one that in fact started the conflict.

 

[Anon]

Re: Race

Anon, that's pretty ballsy of you to say that FiendFyre started the fight. First of all, he didn't make any mention of you being easily offended, he only said he doesn't see the point in taking offense. that doesn't seem directed toward you at all, he just said it to go along with saying that he wouldn't take offense if the hero was not white, and that he doesn't take offense easily. Also, his remark about you asking a lot of questions didn't seem hostile in the slightest. in fact, the comment seemed almost friendly to me. his exclamation wasn't an angry one, it was more of a, "woa, that's a lot of stuff to answer" kind of thing, and i could see it being said with somewhat of a smile.

now, here is the post you were referencing. I don't think any other portion of this post contained any intended hostility, or anything else of the sort.



now, your post directly afterwards was where i think this fight really began:



in the italicized portion of this post, you greatly imply that you are better than him in your mind, and you make fun of him, when in fact nothing before this was said in any angry manner or with any hostile intentions. i admit there is not a large portion of hostility or anger in this post, but i was merely looking for the first hostile statement, the one that in fact started the conflict.

I'm a ballsy type of guy...

I felt that "I'm not one who easily takes offense." was clearly aimed at me, if you disagree then we'll just have to agree we interpret language differently. I never said or even implied that I was better than him/her merely said that I was better than being drawn into a slanging match, which I still don't feel I've been drawn into. Nothing I've said has been without basis or illogical, perhaps I was overly hostile, something which I would apologise for, but I do generally feel that a slight was being made on my personality.