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Anyone here know about physics?

Arseface

Look at me still talking when theres science to do
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Dec 28, 2006
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Anyone here know about physics?

If we humans were to have an interstellar (between stars) spacecraft going on a fifty year journey and traveling at 12% the speed of light (as in Project Daedalus), does anyone know what effect time dilation would have on the returning radio signals?
 
Re: Anyone here know about physics?

No.....

Where are the signals returning from, the spacecraft twards Earth? My guess is that they would be extreamly delayed. But I dont know anything about that sort of stuff.
 
Re: Anyone here know about physics?

I read that there would be a doppler type effect on the waves which lowers their frequency, but I'm not sure that relates to time dilation specifically.

Since time would flow differently from the viewpoint of the ship (much quicker) than on Earth, I'm wondering how the radio signals would be effected, since they are traveling between the two.

For instance, on the ship, because of the high speed, three or so months (I'm really not sure about the time, but for arguments sake) will appear to pass. On Earth, however, it will be 50 years. What does that mean for the radio waves travelling between the two systems.
 
Re: Anyone here know about physics?

radiowaves dissipate and scramble after a few light years into meaningless noise.
 
Re: Anyone here know about physics?

JohnDoe;325942 said:
I think you may be thinking of something else. Time dilation won't have an effect on radio waves, as they're traveling at the speed of light.

I realise that they would travel at the same speed, but at a different frequency. I'm more interested in this scenario:

Say the ship sends back a signal about two months into the project (local time), when would Earth get it, considering that time is flowing differently for both "observers".
 
Re: Anyone here know about physics?

JohnDoe;325963 said:
I had a nice long answer for you but I fear it'd be wasted. The short answer is just over a week.

Please do go more indepth. I love this sorta stuff.
 
Re: Anyone here know about physics?

JohnDoe;325973 said:
Okay. The assumptions are that the vessel is traveling directly away from Earth and that signals are coming and going directly to and from each other instead of being bounced off of satellites and under ideal circumstances where there is nothing that gets in the way.

Neglected things are the exact point in orbit and rotation of Earth in space relative to the vessel and the slower speed of the radio waves within the atmosphere (vessel is moving pretty damn fast and going quite a long way, altogether it makes little difference), and also neglected is the time it took the vessel to accelerate to 12/100c.

So let's just say that the Earth isn't moving at all, that gives the receiving end of the transmission a velocity of 0, a nice number for these sorts of things, and that the vessel accelerates to maximum velocity instantaneously, and that nothing gets in the way of the transmission like meteors or a flock of damn birds.

So plug some numbers:
12/100c (35975094.96 m/s) for 60 civil days (5184000 s) comes to 186494892272640 m or roughly 186.5 billion km.
We have our distance.

Radio waves are light waves, and there's a lot of theories on light, but I'll stick to the massless theories as that 0 is really nice for calculations. Being massless, it is not bound to laws regarding momentum. Having mass, the absolute velocity would be affected by the speed of the vessel, and if you want a real mind**** you could say it is drawn to the gravitational pull of the vessel, so massless it is. Traveling at the speed of light, 299792458 m/s, it would take 7.2 days to arrive on Earth. For a streaming transmission, the frequency could be affected (I say "could" because this goes out of my current field of study), being decreased to 89% of the sending frequency. Let's say it's 100Hz leaving the vessel. The Doppler effect can be applied like this:
((Transmission speed + Earth speed)/(Transmission speed + vessel speed)) times the frequency as sent = frequency as received.
Comes out to c/(c+12/100c)100Hz, which is about 89Hz. Couldn't tell you how this would effect all the other cool stuff, which is probably what you wanted to know.

As for time dilation, I'm pretty sure that doesn't apply as I think (I think, again, this is outside of my studies) time dilation occurs between two things in the same place, and this vessel is going to be a tad outside the same area code.

The dust coming off of my physics book is making me sneeze, and I have a big headache in my eye.

Omfg i think you just broke my brain O.o
 
Re: Anyone here know about physics?

My guess is a long time.
 
Re: Anyone here know about physics?

Humanity may get lucky and discover some Mass Relays.

(had to)
 
Re: Anyone here know about physics?

JohnDoe;325973 said:
Okay. The assumptions are that the vessel is traveling directly away from Earth and that signals are coming and going directly to and from each other instead of being bounced off of satellites and under ideal circumstances where there is nothing that gets in the way.

Neglected things are the exact point in orbit and rotation of Earth in space relative to the vessel and the slower speed of the radio waves within the atmosphere (vessel is moving pretty damn fast and going quite a long way, altogether it makes little difference), and also neglected is the time it took the vessel to accelerate to 12/100c.

So let's just say that the Earth isn't moving at all, that gives the receiving end of the transmission a velocity of 0, a nice number for these sorts of things, and that the vessel accelerates to maximum velocity instantaneously, and that nothing gets in the way of the transmission like meteors or a flock of damn birds.

So plug some numbers:
12/100c (35975094.96 m/s) for 60 civil days (5184000 s) comes to 186494892272640 m or roughly 186.5 billion km.
We have our distance.

Radio waves are light waves, and there's a lot of theories on light, but I'll stick to the massless theories as that 0 is really nice for calculations. Being massless, it is not bound to laws regarding momentum. Having mass, the absolute velocity would be affected by the speed of the vessel, and if you want a real mind**** you could say it is drawn to the gravitational pull of the vessel, so massless it is. Traveling at the speed of light, 299792458 m/s, it would take 7.2 days to arrive on Earth. For a streaming transmission, the frequency could be affected (I say "could" because this goes out of my current field of study), being decreased to 89% of the sending frequency. Let's say it's 100Hz leaving the vessel. The Doppler effect can be applied like this:
((Transmission speed + Earth speed)/(Transmission speed + vessel speed)) times the frequency as sent = frequency as received.
Comes out to c/(c+12/100c)100Hz, which is about 89Hz. Couldn't tell you how this would effect all the other cool stuff, which is probably what you wanted to know.

As for time dilation, I'm pretty sure that doesn't apply as I think (I think, again, this is outside of my studies) time dilation occurs between two things in the same place, and this vessel is going to be a tad outside the same area code.

The dust coming off of my physics book is making me sneeze, and I have a big headache in my eye.

Thanks for all that! If your brain isn't to exhausted from thinking about this too hard, could you help me answer some more questions?

I'm pretty sure time dilation applies here (of course, I know nothing in-depth about physics).

So a transmission sent back from the craft at 60 days time from the ship's point of view would take 7 days to reach Earth... What would the time be on Earth? Assuming time dilation applies, it wouldn't be 67 days from Earth's point of view. I'll try to make it clearer.

Here is the scenario:

The ship is a two-stage spacecraft. The first stage would operate for two years, taking the spacecraft to 7.1% of light speed (0.071 c), and then after it was jettisoned the second stage would fire for 1.8 years, bringing the spacecraft up to about 12% of light speed (0.12 c) before being shut down for a 46-year cruise period.

When the ship is 5.9 light years away, speeding through the Barnard's Star system, one can assume time dilation has made the trip shorter from the point of view of the spacecraft.

At this point it sends back a radio signal (it has been constantly transmitting, but I'm only interested in the transmissions at this point).

My questions are:

I know 50 years will have passed on Earth, but how much time has elapsed from the spacecraft's point of view, assuming time dilation applies?

What impact does this difference in the flow of time have on information travelling between the two systems? If a signal is sent back from the craft 60 days into the operation from the crafts point of view, will Earth get it 20 years into the mission from Earth's point of view?

I hope that was clear :S
 
Re: Anyone here know about physics?

JohnDoe;326141 said:
Okay, round two. Sorry for the bump and double-post, but it's for great justice, I swear.

Determining the time dilation. This is where I fudged some numbers, specifically to do with the acceleration with the craft. You might want to double-check the math if you're wanting this for an assignment or something, I don't know why but numbers sometimes come back to me in the wrong order. I'll have all formulas down to show how I came up with the numbers to make it easier to check. Without an exact quadratic function for acceleration, I'll make it easy and assume that it instantaneously jumps to 0.071c for two years, then instantly to 0.12c. I'm also using civil time measurements. 60 seconds to a minute, 60 minutes to an hour, 24 hours to a day, 365 days to a year, all exact, so not accounting for leap years or anything else. The formula to determine time dilation is as follows:

Δt=Δt'/Δ1-(v²/c²)

Where Δt is time passed on Earth, Δt' is time passed on the craft, v is the velocity of the craft and c is the speed of light. So...

Accounting for the first two years at the lower speed:
2 Earth years = x craft years/√1-(0.071c²/c²)
2 Earth years · √1-(0.071c²/c²) = x craft years
63072000s · √1-0.071
63072000s · √0.929
63072000s · ~0.9638 = 60791724s on the craft, or ~1.928 years.

Accounting for the next forty-eight years at the higher speed:
48 Earth years = x craft years/√1-(0.12c²/c²)
48 Earth years · √1-(0.12c²/c²) = x craft years
1513728000s · √1-0.12
1513728000s · √0.88
1513728000s · ~0.9381 = 1420002733s on the craft, or ~45.028 years.

50 Earth years = ~46.956 years on the craft.

For the second question, first to determine the speed of the radio transmission. It should be the speed of light, but to make sure... Einstein's paper on special relativity. Einstein's special relativity theory expresses that the speed of light is absolute regardless of everything. Looks scary, but we only need concern ourselves with this formula.
V=(v+w)/(1+(vw/c²))
Where V is the observed velocity of the transmission, v is the velocity of the craft, w is the absolute velocity of the transmission, and c is the speed of light. Because w=c, there's no number crunching here, just canceling out variables.
V=(v+c)/(1+(vc/c²))
V=(v+c)/(1+(v/c))
V=(v+c)/(v+c)/c
V=c=w

This leads me to question myself with the Doppler hertz thing, but at least this part is done.

Now, if on day 60 in the craft, a radio transmission from the craft was sent to Earth...

x Earth days = 60 craft days/√1-(0.071c²/c²)
x Earth days = 60 craft days/√1-0.071
x Earth days = 60 craft days/√0.929
x Earth days = 60 craft days/~0.9638
~62.25 Earth days = 60 craft days.

But that's when it was sent. It won't be received until...

60 days = 5184000s
At 0.071c or 21285264.52 m/s
Comes out to 110342811271680 meters.
Transmission travels at c, so transmission will be received 368064 seconds or 4.26 days after sending. That isn't craft days or Earth days, but absolute days, as light travels at the same speed for all observers of all relations (Einstein rocks!!!). So it will be on Earth day ~66.51 that the message is received.

Earlier today I was coming up with figures that would imply that the craft would be going back through time which physics states is impossible, so... be sure to double-check the math, that's absolutely important if you're doing this for a class.

*** JohnDoe high-fives himself and takes an aspirin. ***

Woah, thanks again! Don't worry, I'm not doing this for a class or anything. I'm having a crack at writing a sci-fi novel (go and laugh at me) and I'm using this as a part of it, and I like to make things as accurate as I can.

If you can be bothered, may I have one last calculation?

If the ship sends back a signal on the last day of it's 46.956 year journey, when it's 5.9 lightyears away, and has been cruising at .12c for 92% of the trip, and .071c for 8%, how many years on Earth will have passed before it is recieved? Am I right in assuming that it will be 55.9 years on Earth?

Thanks heaps for all this, btw. Ily:kiss:
 
Re: Anyone here know about physics?

ScareCrowReturn;326205 said:
I tried reading this thread.. I've never felt so dumb in my life. I dont get any of this!!! Hahaha.

I got all my knowledge of this stuff from Wikipedia :lol:
 
Re: Anyone here know about physics?

JohnDoe;326209 said:
Yes. I wasn't sure where the 5.9 lightyears value came from so plugged the numbers, sure enough came out to 5.902. So it turns out that the acceleration values are instantaneous. I need to go back to school, this is depressing. I'm getting stupid.

JohnDoe;326209 said:
If it makes you feel better, I felt thoroughly stupid while working on all this. I could hear the voice of my physics instructor in my head telling me how disappointed she was. Nothing is worse than coming up with numbers that you know to be faulty.

Nah, that's good as! The acceleration values aren't instantaneous, but for the purpose of this excercise, and for the welfare of your brain, I decided that it didn't matter. 5.9 lightyears is how far away the target star (Barnard's Star) is.

JohnDoe;326209 said:
And fiction eh? Cool stuff. Don't forget to leave out the part where a tiny minuscule little piece of frozen dust collides with the craft and makes it explode. I love that part. :D

Nah, the spaceship has an entourage of smaller droids that put a dust cloud around it to stop that sort of thing happening. Also it's got a beryllium hide which is pretty resilient.