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Rhetoric of Religion Debates (thinking caps, please)

cheezMcNASTY

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Stop worrying. It's alright. I'm not creating to debate nor do I intend to argue with anyone about their faith.

Lately I've been enjoying myself by watching these debates among scholars and professionals. In particular, the debates between devout members of different faiths and the columnist and author Christopher Hitchens.

These debates have fascinated me because I've been trying to wrap my head around how a debate takes form when it concerns a topic that can't be proven beyond reasonable doubt on one side or another. Essentially, anybody can watch these debates and, using preexisting conclusions of their own, get a very different opinion on it than someone who thinks the other way.

Personally I am an atheist. When I watch, I am naturally scrutinizing the faith arguments much more. All the same, the rhetoric on both sides is far from perfect. I could type out paragraphs for why I think the way I do, but these videos (there are LOTS on YouTube) have given me a lot of enjoyment in the past few weeks. I'll post a link to one and, if you have an hour or two to spare, you can hopefully enjoy it as much as I did. This is not an attempt to spark ANY potentially offensive arguments. What I want to analyze is the arguments and justification put forth by both sides. Honestly, I would love nothing more than for anyone here who's religious (you are few and far between, I know) to watch and critique the side that I naturally gravitate towards. Enough babbling, here's the video.

In any case, please take the time to watch this video or others like it and post your thoughts on the stances taken by both sides.


My Conclusions
Critiquing the religous side, I find it interesting to see how the replacement of supernatural explanations with natural ones is handled. Essentially, both sides are looking at scientific evidence and concluding different things. I am predisposed to side with the atheist, because while many of these scientific facts are amazing, they do not necessarily point towards a design of any sort. I also find the argument of how improbable our existence is to be an interesting one. Yes, it is a very remote chance that with all of the matter in the universe and all of the very narrow specifications needed to support life, our existence is, to say the least, unlikely. The critiquing atheist in me says "and yet, here we are." It's not the strongest claim to make after the fact, on a life supporting planet, but it is still an interesting point. I don't hold any debaters arguing for faith to the negatives of all religion. I find that a religious life is a very different experience depending on which organization you belong to, which country you live in, and who you happen to talk to.

Critiquing the atheist side, or in Hitchen's case, the antitheist side, I think he's a bit too harsh on the bad things done in the name of God. He's conceded in other debates that a person would be just as power hungry or maniacal whether or not they were religious, and it makes me really think to try and draw the line where that can end. These totalitarian religious figures, absent religion, may have been unable to find a reason to do the things they did or convince their subordinates to do the same if they were not able to claim that it was God's will.
 
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I'm an Agnostic Pantheist, I love watching Hitchens videos & Dawkins on youtube. I am truly on the side of Hitchens on the matter of religion though, its poisonous.

It had only one good thing for us, to influence and further our language in the centuries these three books have existed. Everything truly good in these books has been studied, watered out and adopted for us. All that remains is ignorance, superstition, lies, hypocrisy, contradictions in the hundreds and messages of hate. Sure their poetry is beautiful, but that doesn't excuse their deluded state of mind that make them think that they can tell us what is moral, or what to do or how to live. History proves the religious have been the most violent and hateful.

I find it both hilarious and miserable that these books have tricked the world for this long, feel free to believe in a god or not.... but not these gods or their foul creeds.

Jesus never existed, and he was a false prophet for the new testament.

That's my two pence.
 
Interesting. Will surely watch this some day when I have time.

There's a religious show here in Estonia that sometimes has these very interesting topics - like one week a guy talked about science vs religion and hearing those wise men speak is truly enlightening.
 
Not really an argument but still a religious dialog (true story)
Friend 1 is Mormon

Friend 1: "I'm gonna go on my mission, com back in two years and everyone's gonna hate me."
Friend 2: "God won't hate you."
Me: "The real God will hate you."

I was punched immediately after.
 
Personally I don't see the logic behind a debate between science and religion.

a. Religion can not be disproven or proven, so why argue over it?

b. If a supernatural being created the earth and the universe it stands to reason it also created the "laws" which govern it, such as the earth revolving around the sun and evolution.
 
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Personally I don't see the logic behind a debate between science and religion.
In essence, because it concerns very scholarly intellectuals who could wipe the floor with their opponents on an issue that has an answer. If there is no right answer, all that's left is an appreciation for how they could attempt to create an argument to prove or disprove the impossible. These rhetorical methods transcend the topic, but no other topic is as unanswerable as this and therefore forces the debater to exhaust their every resource. It's kind of like setting the worlds greatest supercomputer to the task of counting to infinity in order to marvel at how well it does it.

I created this thread because I was hoping to discuss the rhetoric of such a discussion and so far the most I've gotten is a promise of such a thing from TRA Rotid (thanks, by the way). The question, by definition, is impossible and therefore a waste of time to discuss with the intent of answering it. Discussing the various approaches, points, and analogies, though? That's what I find interesting and was hoping to discuss here.
 
My dad's a teacher and a couple months ago he got some tickets to a debate between Dawkins and the Archbishop, shame I was busy.

I've always been interested in religious debates, it's interesting to see how far some people will go to push their beliefs onto others. Alot of people say it's the religious people that try to convert others, but in my experience it's often the atheists that care the most.
 
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I see what you're going for chez. Unfortunately the sheer futility of it just makes me yawn and look away. In addition, those expert debaters could spend their time making an impact by keeping Creationism out of the schools instead. That way it would have actual impact and do good. Sort of a waste to settle for these 'mock' debates in the face of graver issues, no?
 
Nothing can be gained from religious debates other than their great entertainment value. It's very difficult to shake a religious person's beliefs, and atheists feel strongly in their lack of belief. If you could reason with these people, religious debates wouldn't even exist.

The world has bigger problems; what people believe or don't believe is the least of our worries.
 
Just watched the whole video. The more I watched William Lane Craig talk, the more I moved away from religion. Also, while I though Hitchens made more sense than Craig, there a of things he didn't come up with to counter Craig, that I did imagine. Too bad I wasn't there to share my ideas. Oh well.

The world has bigger problems; what people believe or don't believe is the least of our worries.
Normally, I'd say I agree. However, a lot of actions people take and things that happen in the world are a direct result from a person's belief system. One beliefs the Christian god is true and the other has faith in Allah. Bam, religious war. (yes, yes, oversimplified). I like to say that I don't care what you belief, rather what you do. But occasionaly, what you do is inspired by what you belief.
 
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Normally, I'd say I agree. However, a lot of actions people take and things that happen in the world are a direct result from a person's belief system

I don't think that's true. Religion isn't the cause of the UK's and other countries' poor economical state, and it's not the direct cause for world hunger. Like I said, Demi, bigger problems. Ones you can't blame religion for.
 
I don't think that's true. Religion isn't the cause of the UK's and other countries' poor economical state, and it's not the direct cause for world hunger. Like I said, Demi, bigger problems. Ones you can't blame religion for.

It is responsible for the current situation in the Middle East. Just because that isn't exactly our backyard don't mean it doesn't apply.

Judaism, backed by Christianity, is butting heads with Islam down there.
 
It is responsible for the current situation in the Middle East. Just because that isn't exactly our backyard don't mean it doesn't apply.

And this is exactly why I keep saying bigger problems. It may just be my opinion, but I'd say starving kids is a pretty big problem.
 
I don't think that's true. Religion isn't the cause of the UK's and other countries' poor economical state, and it's not the direct cause for world hunger. Like I said, Demi, bigger problems. Ones you can't blame religion for.
Ah yes. Funny thing, though - While religion does not seem to cause poverty, it does seem high poverty causes religiosity. The poorest countries are the ones with the greatest religiosity while the most satisfied and happy citizens live in mostyl atheistic countries. Only the USA is one big exception. Just an observation.

But when I think of really big problems, I think about global warming and 99942 Apophis. Hehe, would be hilarious if that astereroid was actually a fist of God because humanity is doing such a bad job. That'd be embarassing.
 
Ah yes. Funny thing, though - While religion does not seem to cause poverty, it does seem high poverty causes religiosity. The poorest countries are the ones with the greatest religiosity while the most satisfied and happy citizens live in mostyl atheistic countries. Only the USA is one big exception. Just an observation.

There's a very simple reason for that: Faith brings hope. Rich people don't need faith because they already have whatever they could possibly hope to gain from praying to their God.

If I were starving, I'd want something to believe in too. Something to keep me going.
 
There's a very simple reason for that: Faith brings hope. Rich people don't need faith because they already have whatever they could possibly hope to gain from praying to their God.

If I were starving, I'd want something to believe in too. Something to keep me going.
My thoughts, too. Does make one wonder what's up with the US, though...
 
You don't think a certain percentage of said starving brats are a result of the situation in the middle east?

Then the cause of those starving children is the situation, and not directly religion.
 
Personally I don't see the logic behind a debate between science and religion.

I think it's because you'd expect a debate to end with a winner, while in reality it's ->

IThe question, by definition, is impossible and therefore a waste of time to discuss with the intent of answering it. Discussing the various approaches, points, and analogies, though? That's what I find interesting and was hoping to discuss here.

that really matters.
Now I haven't watched the video yet but the show I was talking about and the man discussing the topic of science vs religion ended up concluding that neither can live without each other etc. I don't remember the details, but if you really wish I can rewatch it and make a rough summary of what he's talking about.

The world has bigger problems; what people believe or don't believe is the least of our worries.

That really doesn't make any sense. Religious debates are there because of themselves. By your logic, you shouldn't be sitting behind your computer, wasting time on a gaming forum. Fabel IV is out... starving kids. I got a dog... nah, starving kids. I'm going to eat... but what about the starving kids?