WWII-era bomber gunners

[Walker]

WWII-era bomber gunners

I'll give rep to anyone who can give me an answer to this argument, with citations.

My grandpa was an Aviation Machinist's Mate 2/c during WWII (and Korea, too, I think that was the highest rank he reached), with the USN and then the USNR. He was a mechanic, and on at least some occasions, he flew on a PB4Y-2 Privateer (B-24 Liberator) as a gunner.

My dad and I were discussing (read: arguing like ten-year-olds) about this. My grandpa was a mechanic. That is inarguable. What I was saying was that all gunners on bomber crews were mechanics. It was part of their duties, because it makes ****-all sense to train guys dedicated solely as gunners. This is the same reason that the gunners on helicopters today are usually machinist's mates or something.

My dad's argument was that he was a mechanic, and they occasionally let him go up because he really like shooting the big guns, as a special treat. I think this is balls-out stupid, but I haven't been able to find any data on it.

So, anyone who can find me data on who and what the USN used as their gunners on bombers gets rep. You get rep whether you prove me right or wrong. On second though, you get triple rep for info on the Navy and double rep for info on, say, the Army. You'll get one for, say, the RCAF.

 

[Arseface]

Re: WWII-era bomber gunners

If you're dad's anything like mine, then he's talking ****.

 

[Sean]

Re: WWII-era bomber gunners

I'm not too in on details about this -

But my grandfather was a tail gunner in World War 2, I think his crew had experience in mechanics, due to them being on a plane, and if the only mechanic gets shot then they're screwed, but I don't think all crew members were considered mechanics. But they switched positions, between aviators and gunner positions so that kinda says each crew member had experience in at least each position of a bomber. So whether they were considered mechanics or not, they had experience in that area as well as others.

 

[Walker]

Re: WWII-era bomber gunners

Was your grandfather a mechanic or an engineer? And was he enlisted or was he an officer? A mechanic would never have participated in air combat except under extreme circumstances, and my understanding is that just about everyone that went flying into combat was an officer, with exceptions to those in charge of keeping the tanks full of fuel and the guns full of bullets. Depending on what kind of flights these were, there might have also been some enlisted men assisting the officers.

Edit: It's worth noting that my knowledge is limited to the Air Force.

Pretty sure that isn't true. The gunners (guys running the ball turrets on the big bombers) were almost always enlisted, from everything I can find. If you can find me where one of them was an officer, please do.

My grandpa was a mechanic. After he WWII and Korea, he worked for United Airlines for a long, long time. And he was enlisted, Machinist's Mate 2/c, like I said. (Don't think they had aviation machinist's mate as a rate then, so that bit was a lie.) And he definitely qualified as a gunner (he told me stories about the training, like how he got his nickname, and he was definitely a mechanic.

I'm not too in on details about this -

But my grandfather was a tail gunner in World War 2, I think his crew had experience in mechanics, due to them being on a plane, and if the only mechanic gets shot then they're screwed, but I don't think all crew members were considered mechanics. But they switched positions, between aviators and gunner positions so that kinda says each crew member had experience in at least each position of a bomber. So whether they were considered mechanics or not, they had experience in that area as well as others.

How do you mean aviators? Y'mean the pilots? I'm pretty sure that the pilot, copilot, and bombardier were all officers, but I don't know... was your grandpa enlisted?

And out of curiosity, who'd he fly with/where? My grandpa flew in the Pacific, out of Okinawa.

As for my info, on the guys who shot the guns being enlisted, wikipedia mentions two enlisted men when it's talking about the last combat use of the bomber tail machine guns, and this guy I just googled, who was Army, and hence part of the AF's predecessor organization.

 

[Sean]

Re: WWII-era bomber gunners

Pretty sure that isn't true. The gunners (guys running the ball turrets on the big bombers) were almost always enlisted, from everything I can find. If you can find me where one of them was an officer, please do.

My grandpa was a mechanic. After he WWII and Korea, he worked for United Airlines for a long, long time. And he was enlisted, Machinist's Mate 2/c, like I said. (Don't think they had aviation machinist's mate as a rate then, so that bit was a lie.) And he definitely qualified as a gunner (he told me stories about the training, like how he got his nickname, and he was definitely a mechanic.



How do you mean aviators? Y'mean the pilots? I'm pretty sure that the pilot, copilot, and bombardier were all officers, but I don't know... was your grandpa enlisted?

And out of curiosity, who'd he fly with/where? My grandpa flew in the Pacific, out of Okinawa.

As for my info, on the guys who shot the guns being enlisted, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_gunner[/URL"]]wikipedia mentions two enlisted men when it's talking about the last combat use of the bomber tail machine guns, and this guy I just googled, who was Army, and hence part of the AF's predecessor organization.

Yes, the pilots, he was an aviator and a gunner for a bomber, I don't know the full details on who he flew with, he never talked about it much and even when he did he didn't like it, but yes he was enlisted and he flew missions over Germany and Czechoslovakia during the end of the war, my dad knows the town they blew up and did missions over but I don't so I'll ask him later, sorry if I wasn't much help.

 

[Walker]

Re: WWII-era bomber gunners

So he was Army? BOOOO! (Only joking. Any idea what he flew on? Just satisfying my curiosity.)

 

[Tsuyu]

Re: WWII-era bomber gunners

I don't know, Walker. Do you mean that they were gunners with mechanist training on the side, or that they were the standard gunner crew and mechanist crew combined into one?

 

[Walker]

Re: WWII-era bomber gunners

I mean that my grandpa was a mechanic with VPB-123, PB4Y-2 Privateer Patrol Squadron and that he was attached to a specific aircraft as part of its flight crew and flew regularly as a turret gunner*.

I don't doubt that they had more mechanics than the guys who flew on the aircraft, but I believe that all the gunners and such were mechanics. That was their rate, and that's what they were trained as. They were also the guys who were trained to run the fifty-caliber machine gun turrets.

*My dad disagrees, claiming that my grandpa was a mechanic who they occasionally let fly because he got a kick out of it. My dad knew my grandpa longer than I did, but my mom (his daughter) was staying out of the argument. And I did, after all, do one of those interview-a-grandparent projects in second grade. Wish I could find that.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any info on the composition of WWII USN patrol bomber crews.

 

[Tsuyu]

Re: WWII-era bomber gunners

The only problem I see with that is that bombers during WWII got shot up. A lot. A WWII flying fortress, as one might guess by the name, was somewhat of a flying tank; not being able to outmaneuver or dodge the enemy fighters if their escort failed to provide the protection. I can't really see the mechanic crew regularly manning the turrets during battle rather than try and attempt whatever patchwork repairs or mechanical maintenance they could muster.

So yeah, I could see gunners also working as mechanics when not in combat. I just can't see the mechanics all abandoning stations to man the turrets when under attack; only during an emergency or something when the regular gunners can't perform and it is kill or be killed.

EDIT: After poking around for a bit I found this website:

http://www.b24.net/

Of great interest was their crew listing:

http://www.b24.net/aircrew/anames.html

As we can clearly see they have appointed gunners as well as engineers. This would lead me to believe that whilst gunners might have had some mechanical expertise, the real mechanics/engineers weren't there to shoot down enemy planes?

 

[Walker]

Re: WWII-era bomber gunners

I really don't know. All the engineers listed there were tech sergeants, and all the gunners were staff sergeants or sergeants, one or two rates below. If I had to guess, the engineers had recieved extra specialist training, and a promotion to go with it, to serve as in-flight mechanics... but I have no way of knowing for sure.

And I'm a little fuzzy on what my grandpa's rate/rating was, exactly. Back when I did that project on him, he said he was a machinst's mate second class, I'm almost certain of it. On his tombstone, they put AD2, because the rate changed in the ensuing fifty years or so, to aviation machinist's mate. Upstairs we have a picture of him, on leave, I guess, with my grandma, where he has two stripes on his uniform, so he was PO2. Which is what I thought.

So wait, no, I'm not confused. PO2 is equivalent to SSGT for those Army ranks. Which would lead me to assume that he was straight-up a gunner.

Which would lead me to believe that I'm right, that my grandpa was primarily a gunner, who was a mechanic in his non-flying time, rather than some guy on the ground who they just let fly occasionally.

But... my grandpa definitely had mechanical expertise coming out the wazoo. And I suspect that farm boy-to-navy (aviation) machinist's mate might have had a little something to do with the nice job he got working on United's airliner engines, rather than him getting the job completely ignorant.

(Oh, and here's your two-rep for finding info on Army aviation.)


EDIT: So, yeah, what I'm trying to say (and being vaguely incoherent with) is that my grandpa was a gunner, but he was a machinist's mate rating-- so he had training as a mechanic, rather than being a gunner's mate or something. The engineers were probably ALSO machinist's mates, but with more training to be engineers. And then there were probably other machinist's mates who served as groundcrew or what have you.

And yeah, from the looks of that list you put down, pilot, copilot, bombardier, and navigator were all officers. Engineers, radio operators, and gunners were enlisted.

 

[Sean]

Re: WWII-era bomber gunners

No, he was definitely airforce, if I find his information I'll let ya know.

 

[Walker]

Re: WWII-era bomber gunners

Not to be argumentative, but if he was flying during WWII then he was either Army, Navy, Marine, or possibly (narrowly so) Coast Guard at the time.

If he was later Air Force, then he was Army at the time. Admittedly, Army Air Forces, but still. Army. AF only became a separate branch in 1947.