Reaver - Discuss
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Reaver isn't evil. Nor is he good. Or neutral. He is merely amoral. He has no morals, he does what pleases him, both mentally, and... carnally.
As a comparison. On a scale like this one:
Good-----------------Neutral-----------------Evil
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Reaver is where the arrow is, at different points in his day. We know Reaver has emotions - we saw this in his diary in Fable 2, where he clearly feels remorse - but he appears to wish to suppress these feelings. It is much easier to say that he is Narcissistic, Egotistic, with a Superiority Complex, incredible Arrogance brought on by his skill with firearms, and a total disregard for other life thrown in there.
As a comparison. On a scale like this one:
Good-----------------Neutral-----------------Evil
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Reaver is where the arrow is, at different points in his day. We know Reaver has emotions - we saw this in his diary in Fable 2, where he clearly feels remorse - but he appears to wish to suppress these feelings. It is much easier to say that he is Narcissistic, Egotistic, with a Superiority Complex, incredible Arrogance brought on by his skill with firearms, and a total disregard for other life thrown in there.
Where did I say that everyone should agree with what I do? I just said it was my opinion, and that people getting worked up over it seems pointless because it's only what I'm think. My post got called ignorant, yeah, I'm gonna respond to that.
I have argued my point, but like I said, I'm dropping it because it's getting off topic, and it's not really what the thread should be about.
So anyone else think Reaver would have been nearly so popular if he wasn't voiced by Stephen Fry?
I have argued my point, but like I said, I'm dropping it because it's getting off topic, and it's not really what the thread should be about.
So anyone else think Reaver would have been nearly so popular if he wasn't voiced by Stephen Fry?
Him being like-able is completely irrelevant to the argument at hand. We're discussing whether he's evil or not and it's quite clear that he is.
No, he didn't. Nothing he did benefited me or my kingdom in any way and he was nothing more than a nuisance who didn't really do much for me even after I became king. Killing anyone is considered evil, he's not an exception despite him being an evil jackass.
Naw, I'd still say he's evil.
In terms of Fable good + evil anyway.
If we played our character exactly how Reaver would act, I'm pretty sure you'd be fully evil within half hour.
In terms of Fable good + evil anyway.
If we played our character exactly how Reaver would act, I'm pretty sure you'd be fully evil within half hour.
It's implied considering how you reacted. No one is getting "worked up" over anything, you just don't seem to like it when people refute your views. Yes, I called your post ignorant because you're completely ignoring the fact that he's committed unspeakable crimes against humanity and he's a saint for it; to you, anyways.
Uh... no. The thread title clearly stats "Reaver - Discuss" so we're right on topic.
.. you know, that is a really good point.
I never thought of it that way before. Edit: Oh geeze, am I calling him a Saint? Yeah, check out the halo on the guy and the angelic chorus when he walks into a room!
If I had to describe Reaver, I wouldn't call him evil. That's all. Amoral like the poster a few posts above said? Oh yes. A really twisted piece of work? Yeah, I'd call him that again. Words that would get starred out? Yup, there again.
I just don't think he did things with evil in mind. He did them because they benefited him in some shape or form. An evil guy would make kids work in dangerous factories because it's innocent little children, and it hurts them. Reaver did it to keep them off the streets, and because it was cheap labour. The result might be evil, but the path wasn't. Surprisingly logical, the way he puts it, come to think of it.
This is off-topic still but Raven brought up Logan so I wanna finish this..
Logan was a good ruler, end of. Just inadequate 'cause of the coming invasion.
Logan was a good ruler, end of. Just inadequate 'cause of the coming invasion.
Off topic, but fighting for Logan.
He raised taxes, enforced laws, and gave Bowerstone Industrial to Reaver because he needed the money to help protect Albion against the Crawler's attack. He didn't save Aurora like he promised because he needed the money to protect his own people, and they were an already decimated country. He made the choices he did to help Albion, just like the hero has to when they become monarch, and he chose the wrong choice everytime because he needed that money.
He made the hero chose between Elise/Elliot and the ringleaders to prove a point, that being King came with awful decisions. Yes, he went over the top with this one, but the lesson was still there. It's easy to pick holes in someone else's rule when you're not the one facing those choices, and he wanted to show the hero that.
He's not a good person, but he's not "evil" either. He did his best, and before knowing of the Crawler attack, he was supposedly an amazing ruler. He didn't give up his throne in the start because he knew you weren't ready to take it, when you finally do become King/Queen, he remarks that the hero has grown into the person he always hoped they would become. So it's there and then they're ready for the throne, not before.
He raised taxes, enforced laws, and gave Bowerstone Industrial to Reaver because he needed the money to help protect Albion against the Crawler's attack. He didn't save Aurora like he promised because he needed the money to protect his own people, and they were an already decimated country. He made the choices he did to help Albion, just like the hero has to when they become monarch, and he chose the wrong choice everytime because he needed that money.
He made the hero chose between Elise/Elliot and the ringleaders to prove a point, that being King came with awful decisions. Yes, he went over the top with this one, but the lesson was still there. It's easy to pick holes in someone else's rule when you're not the one facing those choices, and he wanted to show the hero that.
He's not a good person, but he's not "evil" either. He did his best, and before knowing of the Crawler attack, he was supposedly an amazing ruler. He didn't give up his throne in the start because he knew you weren't ready to take it, when you finally do become King/Queen, he remarks that the hero has grown into the person he always hoped they would become. So it's there and then they're ready for the throne, not before.
Yeah, I can't deal with you people anymore but I will say this...
You take evil and good to the extremes. According to your logic, in order to be "evil" he has to run around raping children in the eye sockets and defecating on people's graves while robbing the homeless and stomping on puppies "just because he can".
If you're actually going to ignore the facts, then I'm not going to bother trying to talk with either of you. That's just unnecessary stress that I don't need and it's a sure-fire way to get myself in trouble.
I'm done. Enjoy.
You take evil and good to the extremes. According to your logic, in order to be "evil" he has to run around raping children in the eye sockets and defecating on people's graves while robbing the homeless and stomping on puppies "just because he can".
If you're actually going to ignore the facts, then I'm not going to bother trying to talk with either of you. That's just unnecessary stress that I don't need and it's a sure-fire way to get myself in trouble.
I'm done. Enjoy.
Oh my God. I just read this post and had to do a very dramatic double take! Evil is a concept. People that appear evil to you can appear completely different to others, or even themselves. In Logan's case, put yourself in this position: In 4-5 years, everything you know and love will be destroyed, but through a few harsh decisions, you can save them (or at least you think you can). Reaver's case is quite different, but we do not know Reaver's whole story. Here is what I worked out from Reaver's diary from Fable 2, and the history of the Fable world. He was originally an (at least a) decent person, maybe a bit vain, that was tricked into paying a terrible price for eternal youth and beauty. What happens then is a mystery, but we know that, at least as of 50 years before fable 3, that he still was haunted by nightmares of his grave decision; maybe a hint of regret.
At first yeah but I think Reaver's come to terms with it and thought '**** it, they were worth it'. 
Logan discussion:
Logan is a good guy I think, albeit less good after being forced to make all those decisions for his country. If it wasn't for Theresa (and obviously, the Crawler and the Darkness), Logan would probably be a much more beloved ruler, even if he might not have been the perfect saint you may opt to be if you've got the gold. On the other hand, since we don't know, he might have been that benevolent; all I can say for sure is that Theresa corrupts people, be it for her own personal interest or to save Albion.
Reaver discussion:
Yes, he is completely amoral and he keeps his feelings locked away. Whether he is even leaning towards good or bad behind all that is hard to say, but as he is now I would say he's closer to evil than good, even if the reason for that is because he simply doesn't care.
Logan is a good guy I think, albeit less good after being forced to make all those decisions for his country. If it wasn't for Theresa (and obviously, the Crawler and the Darkness), Logan would probably be a much more beloved ruler, even if he might not have been the perfect saint you may opt to be if you've got the gold. On the other hand, since we don't know, he might have been that benevolent; all I can say for sure is that Theresa corrupts people, be it for her own personal interest or to save Albion.
Reaver discussion:
Yes, he is completely amoral and he keeps his feelings locked away. Whether he is even leaning towards good or bad behind all that is hard to say, but as he is now I would say he's closer to evil than good, even if the reason for that is because he simply doesn't care.
Reaver isnt amoral! His evil.
Someone imoral would just walk past a dying person in the street.
Reaver would shoot them because thier whines are getting on his nerves.
He bends people to his will, his kills those whom he can't. Or tries to engineer circumstances in which they will die if his incapable of it himself.
His also incredibly awesome, partly because of Fry but alot of the credit has to be given to lionhead for the writing of him too. He is a great character, but his most certainly evil.
Someone imoral would just walk past a dying person in the street.
Reaver would shoot them because thier whines are getting on his nerves.
He bends people to his will, his kills those whom he can't. Or tries to engineer circumstances in which they will die if his incapable of it himself.
His also incredibly awesome, partly because of Fry but alot of the credit has to be given to lionhead for the writing of him too. He is a great character, but his most certainly evil.
The evil ego within my role-playing brain understands and revels with him. The good part of my brain wants me to kill him brutally, no quick-like thigh-to-neck-snapping, then melt down all his guns into a statue of him with my foot in his ass.
But, I'll just have to settle for slapping away all his arguments in my Court. Brothel? Nope, build an orphanage. Harvest the trees? Nuh-uh pretty boy, I wanna see you down there hugging them yourself.
And being the nihilistic optimist I am, I have taken a little thing in my Fable life and enjoyed it, until Lionhead deems it proper for me to whoop his candy-ass hands-on-and-off-again approach to villainy.
But, I'll just have to settle for slapping away all his arguments in my Court. Brothel? Nope, build an orphanage. Harvest the trees? Nuh-uh pretty boy, I wanna see you down there hugging them yourself.
And being the nihilistic optimist I am, I have taken a little thing in my Fable life and enjoyed it, until Lionhead deems it proper for me to whoop his candy-ass hands-on-and-off-again approach to villainy.
Reaver's Crimes:
GENOCIDE
The mass genocide of Oakvale is at the top of Reaver's very long list of crimes against humanity at large. (This is techinically manslaugher, I suppose, since he although he caused it Reaver never intended for it to happen. Be that as it may, it's small consolation to all those innocent people who were brutally murdered by the shadows, wouldn't you agree? If they were alive today, no doubt that want to see Reaver hanged or worse for his selfish stupidity.)
MURDER
Let's forget about Reaver's initial crime for the moment. How many people has Reaver murdered? In cold blood? Without provocation? Let's go ahead and omit anyone who attacked him first. Why not? That'll shorten the list, right? HA HA HA! But seriously, considering that he killed Barnum pretty much on a whim, I'd say Reaver has probably gunned down hundreds, perhaps even thousands of innocent people. Don't even get me started on how many people Reaver has no doubt tortured to death for his sick amusement or fed to his private monster collection. Oh! Then there's the "prizes" Reaver offered to his oppressed workers. A longer break than three seconds results in a worker being shot? They'll be shot for complaining. Shot for not working. Monstrous. Reaver is a soulless monster.
RITUAL SACRIFICE
Reaver kidnaps innocent people and doesn't just kill them, he drains them of their youth, leaving them withered husks. Aged before their time. He STEALS SOULS TO SUSTAIN HIS OWN WRETCHED EXISTENCE. What isn't evil about that? What does someone have to do to BE more evil than that? It boggles my mind! I can't even come up with anything more vile and selfish. I'm sure Reaver could though.
CHILD ABUSE
Does anything really need to be said? If you support Reaver, you support child labor. Interestingly enough, putting children to work was actually a real life practice during the industrial revolution. They paid street urchins in food and had them crawl around inside the factory machinery in order to clean it. Of course, it would have cost the factory managers money to shut down the machines for cleaning... so the children did while the machinery was turned on. Many little homeless children were ripped apart and chewed up by the unforgiving steel. Then another child was sent in to clean it up.
Reaver would never do that, would he? OH you bet he would.
EXPLOITATION
Reaver wants the king/queen of Albion to rape the forests, dump waste in the rivers, and grind up the countryside into mulch looking for valuable metals and minerals. He's every Captain Planet villain ever introduced. Reaver seeks the death and suffering of future generations not even yet born.
I wish I could list Reaver's sexual deviancy here as a crime, but I guess it really isn't (though it's revealed through his notes that he's killed plenty of lovers, and in some cases just let them die.)
Is he a great villain? Without question. Has the Fable series been enriched by his presence? Absolutely. Is he evil? HOW CAN YOU EVEN DOUBT IT!? Reaver is barely even human. He's a DEMON wearing human skin, and all those who make excuses for him are FOOLS who wouldn't know evil if it jumped out from behind a potted plant and clawed their faces off. To defend a man like him because of some petty school girl crush... it's... it's HORRIBLE. What is WRONG WITH YOU?? Wake up and smell the giant pile of corpses Reaver is standing on top of, kiddo. Big surprise. They smell like death.
GENOCIDE
The mass genocide of Oakvale is at the top of Reaver's very long list of crimes against humanity at large. (This is techinically manslaugher, I suppose, since he although he caused it Reaver never intended for it to happen. Be that as it may, it's small consolation to all those innocent people who were brutally murdered by the shadows, wouldn't you agree? If they were alive today, no doubt that want to see Reaver hanged or worse for his selfish stupidity.)
MURDER
Let's forget about Reaver's initial crime for the moment. How many people has Reaver murdered? In cold blood? Without provocation? Let's go ahead and omit anyone who attacked him first. Why not? That'll shorten the list, right? HA HA HA! But seriously, considering that he killed Barnum pretty much on a whim, I'd say Reaver has probably gunned down hundreds, perhaps even thousands of innocent people. Don't even get me started on how many people Reaver has no doubt tortured to death for his sick amusement or fed to his private monster collection. Oh! Then there's the "prizes" Reaver offered to his oppressed workers. A longer break than three seconds results in a worker being shot? They'll be shot for complaining. Shot for not working. Monstrous. Reaver is a soulless monster.
RITUAL SACRIFICE
Reaver kidnaps innocent people and doesn't just kill them, he drains them of their youth, leaving them withered husks. Aged before their time. He STEALS SOULS TO SUSTAIN HIS OWN WRETCHED EXISTENCE. What isn't evil about that? What does someone have to do to BE more evil than that? It boggles my mind! I can't even come up with anything more vile and selfish. I'm sure Reaver could though.
CHILD ABUSE
Does anything really need to be said? If you support Reaver, you support child labor. Interestingly enough, putting children to work was actually a real life practice during the industrial revolution. They paid street urchins in food and had them crawl around inside the factory machinery in order to clean it. Of course, it would have cost the factory managers money to shut down the machines for cleaning... so the children did while the machinery was turned on. Many little homeless children were ripped apart and chewed up by the unforgiving steel. Then another child was sent in to clean it up.
Reaver would never do that, would he? OH you bet he would.
EXPLOITATION
Reaver wants the king/queen of Albion to rape the forests, dump waste in the rivers, and grind up the countryside into mulch looking for valuable metals and minerals. He's every Captain Planet villain ever introduced. Reaver seeks the death and suffering of future generations not even yet born.
I wish I could list Reaver's sexual deviancy here as a crime, but I guess it really isn't (though it's revealed through his notes that he's killed plenty of lovers, and in some cases just let them die.)
Is he a great villain? Without question. Has the Fable series been enriched by his presence? Absolutely. Is he evil? HOW CAN YOU EVEN DOUBT IT!? Reaver is barely even human. He's a DEMON wearing human skin, and all those who make excuses for him are FOOLS who wouldn't know evil if it jumped out from behind a potted plant and clawed their faces off. To defend a man like him because of some petty school girl crush... it's... it's HORRIBLE. What is WRONG WITH YOU?? Wake up and smell the giant pile of corpses Reaver is standing on top of, kiddo. Big surprise. They smell like death.
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