Oh God, Again?

[Sephiroxas]

Re: Oh God, Again?

Life is hard, and death is hard. For whatever the reason the person died. Whether it be suicide or accident..(so on) It's hard to deal with. I know from my mother dying, I know from friends dying. And I hear about people killing themselves through other people. And it always just makes me so sad. While I agree that it's selfish. I too have been super depressed at points in my life. And felt that it might be the only way out. it's hard to be alone..Very hard, and no one wants to deal with that fact. Especially if they feel trapped..

I'm sorry for your loss, and I'm sorry for the losses of anyone else.

I wish all the best to your uncle and cousin, and hope the wounds heal someday.

 

[ssjcb1186]

Re: Oh God, Again?

Being someone who has tried to kill himself, it's a scary state of mind to be in. It's not something you can really understand unless you've experienced first hand. It is a selfish thing to do, but that's only part of the picture.

Try to picture it from their point of view. Maybe they felt that alone, maybe they honestly thought no one would miss them. I used to have that point of view, I used to be that heart broken.

I'm not trying to justify suicide, but you guys are acting as if the person who has actually killed themselves wasn't suffering at all, and that is just as selfish.

looks like droded and arseface opened that pandora's box, so i guess i'll share my 2 cents.

droded is absolutely right. suicide is a 100% selfish crime. some may claim that others are "too burdened" by their existence or some similar bull****. the fact is, suicide is you giving up on the world, and putting everyone who knows and cares for you through unnecessary hardship just because your life is so hard. your life. imagine how hard you're making 20+ lives just by ending yours.

it is without a doubt a selfish and *****y way to end your life. so yeah, don't be mad at people who commit suicide, pity their weak will.



of course their suffering, but they are forgetting something very important: they are not alone. if suicide truly were a victimless crime (yes, techincally it is a crime), then i wouldn't give a crap either way. but the fact is you aren't born from a test tube, you don't go to school in a cubicle, you don't go to work in solitude. everybody knows somebody. there was a kid who constantly bullied and picked on my brother for being disabled, and guess what? he overdosed on drugs. my brother went to his funeral knowing full well this kid was a complete prick to him in real life. no matter what type of interaction you have with the people around you, it's still wrong.
so yeah, i'll put myself in their shoes. but guess what? all i see is someone too absorbed in their own hard life to realize just how many people would show up to their funeral.

I agree with both of you, but, technically, it's not that black and white. Well, to both of you it is, so nevermind. There's nothing wrong with either of these points, and they have very solid points for both of them. (I just hope we don't start flaming each other because that would be sad )

 

[Noctus]

Re: Oh God, Again?

Personally, I find suicide the ultimate act of selfishness. You're taking everyone who ever loved you or liked you and those you have affected in one way or another and ending it.

You're telling me it's selfish for them?

You've no idea what they're going through. Everyone perceives everything differently, and you can't just assume that there was no reason for them to do it. I personally think it's incredibly selfish to expect someone to live their whole life when they don't want to, just to keep you happy so you don't have to deal with it, and instead, they can deal with it all alone.

Killing yourself = selfish

Being mad at someone who was suffering because they didn't want to suffer anymore = not selfish?

Err...right. Okay. Yeah. Sure.

I don't think suicide is selfish at all. If they didn't want to live anymore, that's up to them. It's their life and they can do what they please. As for everyone around them, sure it hurts, but they didn't want to live and now they don't have to, why won't you let them rest without calling them selfish because they didn't want to suffer?

@OP: I'm sorry that this happened to you, and you'll pull through, I know it. Just remember this - if he did it, which he did, he had a good reason for it. I know it's no real comfort, but this is what he wanted. You'll be just fine, stay close to your family. Stay strong.

 

[Tyloric]

Re: Oh God, Again?

You're telling me it's selfish for them?
I don't think suicide is selfish at all. If they didn't want to live anymore, that's up to them.

No, it's not actually.

We're not talking about deathly ill, I'm going to die very soon anyway, suicide. We're talking about someone who's problems probably weren't that terrible to begin with. Suicide is never the answer, not ever.

 

[Noctus]

Re: Oh God, Again?

No, it's not actually.

We're not talking about deathly ill, I'm going to die very soon anyway, suicide. We're talking about someone who's problems probably weren't that terrible to begin with. Suicide is never the answer, not ever.

You don't know what they're going through, so don't say it's never the answer.

The people who suffer from suicidal thoughts are probably depressed. 99 times in 100 they are depressed. Depression is a medical illness, 100% documented. Now, if someone is depressed, they won't see a way out. They just won't. That's part of how depression works. Yeah, maybe they should get help, but it's difficult since a lot of depressed people don't know they're depressed - that's just how their mind works and that's what feels natural to them. It's like how an autistic person, most of the time, has to be diagnosed by someone else. But depression can be mistaken, in the mind of the victim, as just their life being so bad and being so lonely that there is no way out.

It's easy to say it's never the answer from an outside perspective. I know you said you've tried suicide before, but not everybody's case is the same, and to call suicide as a whole selfish is both ignorant and silly.

So tell me how it isn't selfish to expect someone to suffer just so you don't have to deal with the fact they don't want to live, and tell me how it isn't up to them since you just said it isn't.

 

[ssjcb1186]

Re: Oh God, Again?

DS...I already agreed to both sides, and this is exactly what I didn't want happening. I see both sides have valid points, but I have my opinion. If the suicidal person knew any better, they would ask someone for help or tell them about their depression. But why would you when you think the whole world is against you? You share your life with many people and it's valued by at least one person. But how do they know if they never see it?

It's selfish because you're taking away what you gave/others took from you. You don't think about others, you're only thinking of yourself and your own problems.
It's understandable because it's your own life and you can do what you want with it. They're usually not in a right state of mind when they do it.

Don't just read one of my posts and comment on it please, I have other views than just one so assuming is the best thing to do.

Sorry and thank you

 

[Noctus]

Re: Oh God, Again?

I wasn't targeting you, I just saw your comment as a good way to get my points across because I don't think it's selfish at all. The only selfishness in this is from the people who refuse to deal with the fact that their friend/family doesn't want to live, so they'll emotionally blackmail them into staying alive when they really don't want to live. Let them suffer, sure, as long as you're happy, that's just fine, isn't it??

 

[ssjcb1186]

Re: Oh God, Again?

They're the ones not going to get help. They don't go and talk to anyone. They don't know what damage they're going to do. They are only thinking of themselves. That's how it's selfish. I don't want someone to live in misery. If someone came to me and was considering that i would try to help them. Why do you think I want them to live miserably? That's not the only option here. (not said in an aggressive tone)...

oops, I'm getting heated which is what I didn't want to happen.

 

[Noctus]

Re: Oh God, Again?

They're the ones not going to get help. They don't go and talk to anyone. They don't know what damage they're going to do. They are only thinking of themselves. That's how it's selfish. I don't want someone to live in misery. If someone came to me and was considering that i would try to help them. Why do you think I want them to live miserably? That's not the only option here.

What if there is no one to help them? Sure, you could get a paid professional, but do you really think paid professionals give a ****? They only give a **** if they're paid, what if you can't afford that? Why would you put your sanity into a piggy-bank? This is the kind of stuff depressed people face, do you really think they're going to look as the positives with so many overwhelming negatives in the formula? Why would you trust someone who doesn't care who you are and only cares what your credit card number is?

Also, with all due respect, what could you do to prevent such a serious decision of theirs? If they're considering suicide, it's going to take a hell of a lot more than knowing one friend is there to change their mind.

 

[ssjcb1186]

Re: Oh God, Again?

Why are therapy and meds the only solution? Can't realization do enough? I really don't know

If you can't see my side, then that's fine. If you can't understand it, awesome, you don't have to. I don't need to sit here and defend myself. My opinion is mine and it's fine if you bash/disagree with it. I need to get over it.

 

[Noctus]

Re: Oh God, Again?

Why are therapy and meds the only solution? Can't realization do enough? I really don't know

Realization + Depression do not mix, I'm afraid. Well, most of the time. Again, it's a medical condition that can't simply be healed by a magic cure of realization.

If you can't see my side, then that's fine. If you can't understand it, awesome, you don't have to. I don't need to sit here and defend myself. My opinion is mine and it's fine if you bash/disagree with it. I need to get over it.

Debate is perfectly healthy.

 

[ssjcb1186]

Re: Oh God, Again?

not here, in my opinion. And this isn't a debate either. I understand your side and agree with it...for the most part. But you also seem close-minded about it, but have thought about it. I guess it seems you don't have faith in others which makes your opinion of there being no help for someone true. But that's your state of mind and not mine.

 

[Noctus]

Re: Oh God, Again?

not here, in my opinion. And this isn't a debate either. I understand your side and agree with it...for the most part. But you also seem close-minded about it, but have thought about it. I guess it seems you don't have faith in others which makes your opinion of there being no help for someone true. But that's your state of mind and not mine.

Close-minded?! No faith in others?!

If anything, it's the people who think suicide is selfish that has no faith in people. I have faith that the people who commit suicide have a good reason for doing so and if they took that road, I'm thankful that they're at peace. Calling the dead selfish and saying their problems weren't that bad when you have absolutely no idea what they were going through is the epitome of having no faith in them.

Oh and I'd love to see how I'm close-minded since I'm the only one here who seems to be putting myself in other peoples' shoes.

 

[Arc Caster]

Re: Oh God, Again?

Just throwing this out there, I was depressed for 3 or 4 years, and medication made it worse. It took me almost 4 years to realize the pain stemmed from my dad and that realization was enough to give me the drive to move on to fix what I needed to fix to get out of derpession.

 

[droded]

Re: Oh God, Again?

"Selfishness: The act of placing one's own needs or desires above the needs or desires of others."

You're really trying to say that a person contemplating suicide is thinking to themselves "Oh my death will be for the good of others!"?

There isn't any doubt that it's an act of selfishness, it is clearly one by definition so there is no use arguing against that - the obvious defence would be that the victim isn't in a fully sane state of mind just as DS has described.

That is perfectly acceptable by the way - I feel sorry for the victims and pity their relatives exactly because they must have been suffering enough for them to make rash decisions. Each case is different, and every person has got a unique mindset and way of thinking which is why there isn't such thing as black or white when dealing with suicide.
(I was intentionally being one-sided earlier to prove this)

@ DS: When I was typing this I stayed on the page long enough to notice your sig changes colour after a long enough wait - what does it say on the left?

 

[Noctus]

Re: Oh God, Again?

"Selfishness: The act of placing one's own needs or desires above the needs or desires of others."

You're really trying to say that a person contemplating suicide is thinking to themselves "Oh my death will be for the good of others!"?

That's an incredibly black and white way to look at it. Are you trying to tell me if something isn't selfish, it's selfless? There is a zone between the two, and to me, that's where suicide lies.

There isn't any doubt that it's an act of selfishness, it is clearly one by definition so there is no use arguing against that - the obvious defence would be that the victim isn't in a fully sane state of mind just as DS has described.

That is perfectly acceptable by the way - I feel sorry for the victims and pity their relatives exactly because they must have been suffering enough for them to make rash decisions. Each case is different, and every person has got a unique mindset and way of thinking which is why there isn't such thing as black or white when dealing with suicide.
(I was intentionally being one-sided earlier to prove this)

@ DS: When I was typing this I stayed on the page long enough to notice your sig changes colour after a long enough wait - what does it say on the left?

I think anyone willing to give up the most valuable thing they have is definitely not in a sane state of mind, and probably never will be without help - but help is rarely there for those who need it because people don't understand the stance they're in. Chances are their friends won't know what they feel, a paid professional isn't really the most thoughtful person apart from a small minority (And if you're depressed you probably won't focus on the minority), and if there's no one there to understand them and no place to go, well, it goes from there.

Oh and my signature says Agalloch, they're an amazing band.

 

[cheezMcNASTY]

Re: Oh God, Again?

The people who suffer from suicidal thoughts are probably depressed. 99 times in 100 they are depressed. Depression is a medical illness, 100% documented. Now, if someone is depressed, they won't see a way out. They just won't. That's part of how depression works. Yeah, maybe they should get help, but it's difficult since a lot of depressed people don't know they're depressed - that's just how their mind works and that's what feels natural to them.

speaking from personal experience that's true. people usually can't realize they are depressed unless they have been so before and can tell the difference.

So tell me how it isn't selfish to expect someone to suffer just so you don't have to deal with the fact they don't want to live, and tell me how it isn't up to them since you just said it isn't.

because they don't want to live only because of how they are percieving their life. everyones life has it's ups and downs. to say that someone is correct in committing suicide is the silly part. you've already said they are in an altered state of mind. you're in a sense saying that their lives really won't get any better which is the silliest of all. nobodies life is an endless pit of despair. i say suicide is only justified if the person is dying or in physical pain and will be for the rest of their lives. not mental pain.
so yeah, people do genuinly think there is no way out, that's why they try it. the fact is that part of life is overcoming that stuff, and not just giving up when it gets rough.
you're right i've never been that depressed, so i don't know what it's like. i've thought about it in passing but never more than that. so how am i qualified to say such a thing? because i've seen the repurcussions. if you can show me someone who killed themselves and had nobody attend their funeral, i'll show you someone who committed a victimless crime. somebody who was actually justified in the act.

 

[Purple Nurple]

Re: Oh God, Again?

After skimming through the posts on this page (wut i dun reed gud) I agree with most of the points conveyed. Suicide can be selfish and then again, it could be extremely unselfish. I liked DS's point about not knowing what the people that committ suicide are going through, but that's works both ways.

You could see a homeless person on the street that is depressed and suicidal, and immediately feel sorry for them, and it would seem that suicide wouldn't be selfish at all - they seem to have no friends, family, they're homeless, etc. But then again, they could be drug addicts that have worked them selves into the state they are in. Then, it would be extremely selfish - they let all their friends and family down, and then suicide would be the easiest most selfish way out of their problems.

So ultimately, I can't really see how you can group together suicides, many differ entirely from others, and therefore it really depends on the individuals problems.

Another example I'll use - would you think it selfish for someone who works in a job that they hate, seemingly getting nowhere fast, with no-one around to comfort or ease their troubles to committ suicide? Personally I don't think that's selfish at all.

 

[Arseface]

Re: Oh God, Again?

A friend of mine's father committed suicide, leaving no money or possessions to his family due to him not writing a will. (He was the owner of a large company here, and after his death the company kept his shares due to debt)

As a result, my friend had to drop out of school to single-handedly support his disabled mother and younger sister by getting a job as an intern in his own father's company, which paid him the equivalent of around 100 British Pounds a month.
(The woman who took over as CEO saw he was desperate and inexperienced, so decided to take advantage of it by paying him far less than what the job is worth)

But hey, at least his life is better than if his father was still alive and depressed, right Arseface?

I wasn't saying that any option was worse than the other. I was saying it's a hard question to answer, especially because they're both really bad options. Every case is different.

"Selfishness: The act of placing one's own needs or desires above the needs or desires of others."

You're really trying to say that a person contemplating suicide is thinking to themselves "Oh my death will be for the good of others!"?

That's exactly what they think. Their head's not right, remember that.

 

[Skotekal]

Re: Oh God, Again?

Good discussion.

And droded, my cousin was about 30-ish. My uncle is quite older than my dad.